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you seem to think that Dave and Ben have any control whatsoever over the Chengdu worldcon. They don't. World science fiction conventions are autonomous and in

you seem to think that Dave and Ben have any control whatsoever over the Chengdu worldcon. They don't. World science fiction conventions are autonomous and independent of one another, apart from (in theory) having to abide by the WSFS constitution. There is no permanent floating worldcon organization that oversees these events. It has worked up until now -- through 81 conventions in a variety of countries -- because everyone abided by an unspoken agreement to observe the rules. The Chengdu concom appeared to be following the rules right up until they didn't any more and went "rules? what rules?" Here's your brief intro to what worldcon is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldcon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldcon (Disclaimer: I'm a three-times Hugo award winning author and the author with the most appearances on the Hugo shortlist from outside North America.)

deleted 3y ago
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bigbillheck 3y ago
> you seem to think that Dave and Ben have any control whatsoever over the Chengdu worldcon. File770 claims that Dave McCarty was "a Chengdu Worldcon vice-chair and co-head of the Hugo Awards Selection Executive Division".
datadrivenangel 3y ago
Hi Charlie! Appreciate the books. Do you know if there are plans to incorporate WSFS? Seems like it could help with the issues.
- dsr_ 3y ago
  It has been a controversial proposal for about 30 years.
ncallaway 3y ago
> apart from (in theory) having to abide by the WSFS constitution Wasn't the concern that they _didn't_ abide by the WSFS constitution? > The Chengdu concom appeared to be following the rules right up until they didn't any more and went "rules? what rules?" Right, but WSFS then seemed to loudly proclaim that they have _no ability_ to enforce that each Worldcon obeys the rules? Which, if false, is a lie to avoid accountability, and if true demonstrates a deep level of organization ineptness. It seems like the WSFS has fallen down either on the enforcement side, or on the contractual relationship with the Worldcoms if enforcement isn't possible.
- TheCoelacanth 3y ago
  > Right, but WSFS then seemed to loudly proclaim that they have _no ability_ to enforce that each Worldcon obeys the rules? Where are you seeing that the WSFS has loudly proclaimed that? As far as I know, there isn't even anyone who is authorized to make statements on behalf of the WSFS with the exception of getting a resolution passed at the business meeting at Worldcon, but that doesn't happen until August.
  - ncallaway 3y ago
    I’ve been mostly reading Kevin Standlee on bluesky, for that interpretation. Comments like: https://bsky.app/profile/kevinstandlee.bsky.social/post/3kjlvaqxi4b2w https://bsky.app/profile/kevinstandlee.bsky.social/post/3kjl... > I ask again: how could you take away the license from an organization based in China? And what do you do when they tell you to get stuffed? And: https://bsky.app/profile/kevinstandlee.bsky.social/post/3kjj3d22a3n2q https://bsky.app/profile/kevinstandlee.bsky.social/post/3kjj... > The WSFS Constitution depends upon its members to abide by it. There is no external enforcement mechanism. There is no Strong Man who comes in and imposes their will upon committees. And the members have nearly always rejected anything that would make it more enforceable. (It’s hard to point to specific links, because a lot of it is back and forth conversations that have taken place over several days) I assume Kevin Standlee is a reasonable authority on this because of this infodump: https://kevin-standlee.dreamwidth.org/2296661.html https://kevin-standlee.dreamwidth.org/2296661.html > Further disclaimers: I am the current Chair of the legal entity that owns the service marks of the World Science Fiction Society (“Worldcon,” “Hugo Award,” etc.)
    - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
      He can certainly be expected to be well-informed, but he does not officially represent WSFS in this scenario. He is the chair of the Mark Protection Committee. The Mark Protection Committee has the power to enforce trademarks. Nothing else.
      - ncallaway 3y ago
scruple 3y ago
Appreciate your insights here.

deleted 3y ago

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bigbillheck 3y ago

> you seem to think that Dave and Ben have any control whatsoever over the Chengdu worldcon. File770 claims that Dave McCarty was "a Chengdu Worldcon vice-chair and co-head of the Hugo Awards Selection Executive Division".

datadrivenangel 3y ago

Hi Charlie! Appreciate the books. Do you know if there are plans to incorporate WSFS? Seems like it could help with the issues.

dsr_ 3y ago
It has been a controversial proposal for about 30 years.

ncallaway 3y ago

> apart from (in theory) having to abide by the WSFS constitution Wasn't the concern that they _didn't_ abide by the WSFS constitution? > The Chengdu concom appeared to be following the rules right up until they didn't any more and went "rules? what rules?" Right, but WSFS then seemed to loudly proclaim that they have _no ability_ to enforce that each Worldcon obeys the rules? Which, if false, is a lie to avoid accountability, and if true demonstrates a deep level of organization ineptness. It seems like the WSFS has fallen down either on the enforcement side, or on the contractual relationship with the Worldcoms if enforcement isn't possible.

TheCoelacanth 3y ago
> Right, but WSFS then seemed to loudly proclaim that they have _no ability_ to enforce that each Worldcon obeys the rules? Where are you seeing that the WSFS has loudly proclaimed that? As far as I know, there isn't even anyone who is authorized to make statements on behalf of the WSFS with the exception of getting a resolution passed at the business meeting at Worldcon, but that doesn't happen until August.
- ncallaway 3y ago
  I’ve been mostly reading Kevin Standlee on bluesky, for that interpretation. Comments like: https://bsky.app/profile/kevinstandlee.bsky.social/post/3kjlvaqxi4b2w https://bsky.app/profile/kevinstandlee.bsky.social/post/3kjl... > I ask again: how could you take away the license from an organization based in China? And what do you do when they tell you to get stuffed? And: https://bsky.app/profile/kevinstandlee.bsky.social/post/3kjj3d22a3n2q https://bsky.app/profile/kevinstandlee.bsky.social/post/3kjj... > The WSFS Constitution depends upon its members to abide by it. There is no external enforcement mechanism. There is no Strong Man who comes in and imposes their will upon committees. And the members have nearly always rejected anything that would make it more enforceable. (It’s hard to point to specific links, because a lot of it is back and forth conversations that have taken place over several days) I assume Kevin Standlee is a reasonable authority on this because of this infodump: https://kevin-standlee.dreamwidth.org/2296661.html https://kevin-standlee.dreamwidth.org/2296661.html > Further disclaimers: I am the current Chair of the legal entity that owns the service marks of the World Science Fiction Society (“Worldcon,” “Hugo Award,” etc.)
  - TheCoelacanth 3y ago
    He can certainly be expected to be well-informed, but he does not officially represent WSFS in this scenario. He is the chair of the Mark Protection Committee. The Mark Protection Committee has the power to enforce trademarks. Nothing else.
    - ncallaway 3y ago

scruple 3y ago

Appreciate your insights here.