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I always stress how our public education is broken since it can't handle extreme talent very good. Important breakthroughs that advance one or more fields extre

by rigid 3y ago

I always stress how our public education is broken since it can't handle extreme talent very good. Important breakthroughs that advance one or more fields extremely or shifting paradigms completely, were done or prepared by whizzkids. In these times, we need every whizzkid we can get.

truckerbill 3y ago
Education is a cog/mandarin factory in most countries. Whizzkids will educate themselves, what's needed is giving people idle time in order to pursue things. Most influential thinkers found themselves with this in some fashion. How much talent is wasted making people jump through hoops in academia/finance/ad-tech? A lot of pre-industrial thinkers were associated with the clergy because they received tax money from peasants.
- johngossman 3y ago
  Reading Leo Szilard biography right now. School was easy and he just read all the time on his own. Which is pretty much (I’m no Szilard) how it was for me too. School boredom as a recipe for success?
  - euroderf 3y ago
    Alternatively, school boredom as a recipe for being the class clown.
- Scene_Cast2 3y ago
  The issue I see these days is that every industry is getting more and more competitive, and leaves less and less time to think more broadly or creatively. Can't go off reading about differential geometry when you need a guaranteed perfect SAT, a great entrance essay (i.e. a strong personal story), and easy-to-gauge extracurriculars ("placed X in Y", not "read some smart books and had some interesting thoughts that don't impress the admissions officer"). Same goes for the industry and academia as well.
  - programjames 3y ago
    I think top schools are much more likely to accept that kid with a 1550 on the SAT who spent his downtime studying differential geometry instead of the SAT.
- cyberax 3y ago
  One thing (in retrospect) that I love about the xUSSR school system, is its focus on competitive math and physics. There's a robust multi-level system of "Olympiads", starting from the neighborhood level, and going all the way up to the national level. Every student knows about them, and more importantly, "magnet schools" scoop up students who do well in competitions. This works really well for math, and so pretty much every Fields medal award ceremony has awardees from the xUSSR countries. I'm really surprised that this kind of system is not more widespread, especially in the US. After all, sports and competition is kinda a thing here?
- rigid 3y ago
  > Whizzkids will educate themselves Only those you see becoming one. You never hear of all the "Einsteins" who never leave the patents office because they never got inspired for some passion or various other stupid reasons.
kenjackson 3y ago
No system will handle an Euler well. It’s best to recognize them and move them out of the system.
- rigid 3y ago
  You're basically saying the system is obsolete when society reaches a point, where it needs no more mediocre generalists and only excellent specialists. I wouldn't be so pessimistic.
  - pohl 3y ago
    That's the least charitable interpretation, I think. A more charitable read is that no system should be one-size-fits-all, so move outliers to specialized subsystems.
    - rigid 3y ago
      Not sure. In Germany there's an ongoing debate for extending conprehensive schools [1] across all ages. It's a complex topic but the general gist of supporters is, that pupils profit from each other. (e.g. Bad ones get help from the good while those practice how to cooperate and explain etc.). I don't think it's that complex. My personal premises are * if the kid doesn't like to get up and go to school or is too tired over longer periods, the school is doing something wrong, not the kid. * if there are A LOT of kids like this, the school authority is doing something wrong (and so on, up to government) * an older kid needs support on every topic at any time when interest arises. It's the kids' choice not the schools'. * learning at school must be fun, at least 90% of the time. That way whizzkids are easily detected, will be less frustrated and thus perform better. I got some good example anecdotes but better won't "textwall" here :-) Just imagine a world, where Einstein would get optimum support from young age so he would start professional physics years earlier. Or one where he didn't go to the patent office but one where he worked in some factory or other place, not finding the spare time he needed to do physics. Way too much luck involved if you ask me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_school
testless 3y ago
Let's hope education indivualizes to the need and talents of the individual partially via software. ChatGPT is my hope here. 15% failure rate is optimal for learning https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12552-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12552-4
- liendolucas 3y ago
  Seriously? Oh god, please no. We need less of all that BS. People are thinking that are being "tutored" by AI, when in fact is just the output of a number crunching program. Reading books will get you way way closer to solid knowledge than the output crap of this so called "AI".
  - vacuity 3y ago
    I don't think such an attitude is warranted. While I'm skeptical about the potential of LLMs as AGI (whatever that means), being able to summarize subjects and even come up with test questions can be very valuable for learning. I am concerned about the confabulation aspect, though. I wonder if there could be a uncertainty metric for that.
  - testless 3y ago
    Happy to disagree here. I am hopeful that students get apps which provide them with - fast feedback loops - better adjustment to their learning speed - more patience - gamification - oppurtunity to ask endless questions Of course, only as an addition to the current mix. For math problems, this will be easier than for other contexts. I like text books for pop science or really hard things - like university level education. But I am surprised to see them as an option for basic education.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - CamperBob2 3y ago
    You're making a serious mistake. If you're trying to learn something new, even in math or science, GPT4 is nothing less than a superpower. The process of learning when to trust it and when not to is learning.

by rigid 3y ago

truckerbill 3y ago

Education is a cog/mandarin factory in most countries. Whizzkids will educate themselves, what's needed is giving people idle time in order to pursue things. Most influential thinkers found themselves with this in some fashion. How much talent is wasted making people jump through hoops in academia/finance/ad-tech? A lot of pre-industrial thinkers were associated with the clergy because they received tax money from peasants.

johngossman 3y ago
Reading Leo Szilard biography right now. School was easy and he just read all the time on his own. Which is pretty much (I’m no Szilard) how it was for me too. School boredom as a recipe for success?
- euroderf 3y ago
  Alternatively, school boredom as a recipe for being the class clown.
Scene_Cast2 3y ago
The issue I see these days is that every industry is getting more and more competitive, and leaves less and less time to think more broadly or creatively. Can't go off reading about differential geometry when you need a guaranteed perfect SAT, a great entrance essay (i.e. a strong personal story), and easy-to-gauge extracurriculars ("placed X in Y", not "read some smart books and had some interesting thoughts that don't impress the admissions officer"). Same goes for the industry and academia as well.
- programjames 3y ago
  I think top schools are much more likely to accept that kid with a 1550 on the SAT who spent his downtime studying differential geometry instead of the SAT.
cyberax 3y ago
One thing (in retrospect) that I love about the xUSSR school system, is its focus on competitive math and physics. There's a robust multi-level system of "Olympiads", starting from the neighborhood level, and going all the way up to the national level. Every student knows about them, and more importantly, "magnet schools" scoop up students who do well in competitions. This works really well for math, and so pretty much every Fields medal award ceremony has awardees from the xUSSR countries. I'm really surprised that this kind of system is not more widespread, especially in the US. After all, sports and competition is kinda a thing here?
rigid 3y ago
> Whizzkids will educate themselves Only those you see becoming one. You never hear of all the "Einsteins" who never leave the patents office because they never got inspired for some passion or various other stupid reasons.

kenjackson 3y ago

No system will handle an Euler well. It’s best to recognize them and move them out of the system.

rigid 3y ago
You're basically saying the system is obsolete when society reaches a point, where it needs no more mediocre generalists and only excellent specialists. I wouldn't be so pessimistic.
- pohl 3y ago
  That's the least charitable interpretation, I think. A more charitable read is that no system should be one-size-fits-all, so move outliers to specialized subsystems.
  - rigid 3y ago
    Not sure. In Germany there's an ongoing debate for extending conprehensive schools [1] across all ages. It's a complex topic but the general gist of supporters is, that pupils profit from each other. (e.g. Bad ones get help from the good while those practice how to cooperate and explain etc.). I don't think it's that complex. My personal premises are * if the kid doesn't like to get up and go to school or is too tired over longer periods, the school is doing something wrong, not the kid. * if there are A LOT of kids like this, the school authority is doing something wrong (and so on, up to government) * an older kid needs support on every topic at any time when interest arises. It's the kids' choice not the schools'. * learning at school must be fun, at least 90% of the time. That way whizzkids are easily detected, will be less frustrated and thus perform better. I got some good example anecdotes but better won't "textwall" here :-) Just imagine a world, where Einstein would get optimum support from young age so he would start professional physics years earlier. Or one where he didn't go to the patent office but one where he worked in some factory or other place, not finding the spare time he needed to do physics. Way too much luck involved if you ask me. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_school

testless 3y ago

Let's hope education indivualizes to the need and talents of the individual partially via software. ChatGPT is my hope here. 15% failure rate is optimal for learning https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12552-4 https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-019-12552-4

liendolucas 3y ago
Seriously? Oh god, please no. We need less of all that BS. People are thinking that are being "tutored" by AI, when in fact is just the output of a number crunching program. Reading books will get you way way closer to solid knowledge than the output crap of this so called "AI".
- vacuity 3y ago
  I don't think such an attitude is warranted. While I'm skeptical about the potential of LLMs as AGI (whatever that means), being able to summarize subjects and even come up with test questions can be very valuable for learning. I am concerned about the confabulation aspect, though. I wonder if there could be a uncertainty metric for that.
- testless 3y ago
  Happy to disagree here. I am hopeful that students get apps which provide them with - fast feedback loops - better adjustment to their learning speed - more patience - gamification - oppurtunity to ask endless questions Of course, only as an addition to the current mix. For math problems, this will be easier than for other contexts. I like text books for pop science or really hard things - like university level education. But I am surprised to see them as an option for basic education.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- CamperBob2 3y ago
  You're making a serious mistake. If you're trying to learn something new, even in math or science, GPT4 is nothing less than a superpower. The process of learning when to trust it and when not to is learning.