6 ms·

I don't know anything about MRI machines, but couldn't they be built with high temperature superconductors and use liquid nitrogen? If anything this feels like

I don't know anything about MRI machines, but couldn't they be built with high temperature superconductors and use liquid nitrogen? If anything this feels like a cost issue not a pure technology issue...

ramraj07 3y ago
The simpler thing to do seems to regulate helium use in birthday balloons.. not a hard choice between life saving diagnostics and large numerically shaped balloons..
- thsksbd 3y ago
  Why? I like party baloons. My MRI, not so much.
- lettergram 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Dalewyn 3y ago
    In fact, helium is such a mundane resource the US has been getting rid of its national helium reserves[1]. And before anyone says "god damn conservatives", this has been going on across the aisle and is ongoing as we speak. Getting rid of helium is a truly bipartisan agenda. All of this to say: The claims of helium's value have been greatly exaggerated. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve
    - HarryHirsch 3y ago
      We all thought it was a bad idea, shutting down the Helium Reserve.
      - thsksbd 3y ago
        Who's we?
        HarryHirsch 3y ago
        Us chemists and physicists - helium is a nonrenewable resource, and the sudden supply shock encouraged wasteful behaviour.
        lettergram 3y ago
        But one we have a lot of access to lol > Fortunately for us, helium also gets into the natural gas that oil and gas drillers extract from the ground for use as fuel [source: University of Pittsburgh]. That gives us a supply that we can use for blowing up balloons, as well as for a wide variety of other industrial processes, ranging from arc welding to MRIs to manufacturing silicon chips for computers. There has to be a certain amount of helium in the natural gas — at least 0.3 percent by volume – to justify all the trouble of separating it from natural gas. https://science.howstuffworks.com/question12.htm https://science.howstuffworks.com/question12.htm
        thsksbd 3y ago
        Those chemists and physicists who don't know most He is just dumped without any care in CH4 production.
- macshome 3y ago
  Party balloons are normally filled with what’s known as “balloon gas”. It’s a mix of air and helium that’s not suitable for use in medical equipment.
  - philipkglass 3y ago
    Balloon gas is 97% helium, so from a helium consumption standpoint it's about the same either way: https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/balloon-gas https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/balloon-gas
    - h0l0cube 3y ago
      I had to do some digging to find more about this. > "Balloon Grade" Helium represents a slightly impure Helium. While there is no scientific definition of this quality, it is often accepted that the purity of "Balloon Grade" Helium is around 99% https://www.quantum-technology.com/recover/balloon-grade-helium-recovery.html https://www.quantum-technology.com/recover/balloon-grade-hel... Sounds high, but not pure enough for MRI applications, and it isn't currently economical to reliquefy without shipping it to a processor. > Manufacturers have stated that this wasted helium is considered a ‘recycled product’ as it would have been lost to the environment had it not been captured and re-purposed. If the balloon market demand declined, manufacturers would have to re-evaluate other markets and consider the possibilities of re-liquefying it. Re-liquefying is currently considered uneconomical from the locations of where the filling application take place. https://www.partysafe.eu/balloon-and-gas-helium https://www.partysafe.eu/balloon-and-gas-helium Also it's small, but not insignificant, sector of the market: > "A reasonable estimate is that latex 'party' balloons and their foil equivalent account for between 5% and 7% of the total helium usage." https://www.theguardian.com/science/shortcuts/2012/dec/11/should-we-ban-helium-balloons https://www.theguardian.com/science/shortcuts/2012/dec/11/sh...
- spacebacon 3y ago
  I have 3 foil party balloons still inflated after 2 months and 3 days. I left them by the window as heat from the sun provides kinetic energy to the helium atoms to improve the balloons longevity. These three balloons have provided me with enough joy to keep me inside staring at them all day not outside at risk of injury which ultimately leads to an unnecessary MRI.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    > heat from the sun provides kinetic energy to the helium atoms to improve the balloons longevity How does that work?
    - johndunne 3y ago
      Gas pressure is the atoms/molecules bouncing off something else. If the atoms have more energy, then they impart more energy into whatever they bounce off (inside of the balloon), which essentially means higher pressure i.e. the balloon appears inflated again. Until the sun goes away and the OP's party dies for a time. :)
      - saagarjha 3y ago
        How does that increase longevity, thought? Seems like it just inflates the balloon more?
  - shermantanktop 3y ago
    When those balloons finally fail, sounds like it’s just a matter of time before you end up in the noisy donut once again.
    - spacebacon 3y ago
      Everything we know is matter and time. No one is immune.
      - shermantanktop 3y ago
- kragen 3y ago
  why don't you fund the life-saving diagnostics enough that they can outbid birthday party planners? i'm not convinced birthday party planners are rich enough anywhere in the world that this is an actual problem
grogers 3y ago
I don't know if this is the only reason, but superconuctors have a critical magnetic field that is also related to temperature (higher temp = lower magnetic field). So even if a material is superconducting at liquid nitrogen temperature, that doesn't mean it can produce a strong enough magnetic field for an MRI at that high a temp.
cyberax 3y ago
> If anything this feels like a cost issue not a pure technology issue... It IS a technology issue. High-TC superconductors are basically ceramics, meaning that they are brittle. And a good simulation of MRI experience is being inside a trash can that other people hit with baseball bats. We are only now starting to get high-TC superconductors in the form of tape, but it's not yet ready to replace low-TC superconductors. BTW, it's also the reason we're hearing about so many new fusion startups trying to utilize it. It _should_ provide an order of magnitude cost decreases compared to liquid-helium. But it's still something that only startups are using.
- gclawes 3y ago
  The tape is good enough for fusion reactors but not MRIs?
  - cyberax 3y ago
    It's good enough for _startups_ working on fusion reactors, they can tolerate a bit of risk. But not for established companies making safety-critical equipment. And modern MRI machines are not that expensive either, mass production made them surprisingly affordable. A top-of-the-line machine is around $700k, and mid-range devices are $300-$400k (and now I want one in my backyard...). So the savings on high-TC supeconductors would not be that impressive overall.
    - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
      Is 700k the manufacturing cost or a retail price? I thought they were close to 2M on the higher res end.
      - cyberax 3y ago
        It's a list price. You'll obviously also need to pay for installation, delivery, and service. There's apparently even a robust second-hand market for them: https://bimedis.com/search/search-items/magnetic-resonance-imaging-mri-machines https://bimedis.com/search/search-items/magnetic-resonance-i...

ramraj07 3y ago

The simpler thing to do seems to regulate helium use in birthday balloons.. not a hard choice between life saving diagnostics and large numerically shaped balloons..

thsksbd 3y ago
Why? I like party baloons. My MRI, not so much.
lettergram 3y ago
[flagged]
- Dalewyn 3y ago
  In fact, helium is such a mundane resource the US has been getting rid of its national helium reserves[1]. And before anyone says "god damn conservatives", this has been going on across the aisle and is ongoing as we speak. Getting rid of helium is a truly bipartisan agenda. All of this to say: The claims of helium's value have been greatly exaggerated. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Helium_Reserve
  - HarryHirsch 3y ago
    We all thought it was a bad idea, shutting down the Helium Reserve.
    - thsksbd 3y ago
      Who's we?
      - HarryHirsch 3y ago
        Us chemists and physicists - helium is a nonrenewable resource, and the sudden supply shock encouraged wasteful behaviour.
        lettergram 3y ago
        But one we have a lot of access to lol > Fortunately for us, helium also gets into the natural gas that oil and gas drillers extract from the ground for use as fuel [source: University of Pittsburgh]. That gives us a supply that we can use for blowing up balloons, as well as for a wide variety of other industrial processes, ranging from arc welding to MRIs to manufacturing silicon chips for computers. There has to be a certain amount of helium in the natural gas — at least 0.3 percent by volume – to justify all the trouble of separating it from natural gas. https://science.howstuffworks.com/question12.htm https://science.howstuffworks.com/question12.htm
        thsksbd 3y ago
        Those chemists and physicists who don't know most He is just dumped without any care in CH4 production.
macshome 3y ago
Party balloons are normally filled with what’s known as “balloon gas”. It’s a mix of air and helium that’s not suitable for use in medical equipment.
- philipkglass 3y ago
  Balloon gas is 97% helium, so from a helium consumption standpoint it's about the same either way: https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/balloon-gas https://www.boc.com.au/shop/en/au/balloon-gas
  - h0l0cube 3y ago
    I had to do some digging to find more about this. > "Balloon Grade" Helium represents a slightly impure Helium. While there is no scientific definition of this quality, it is often accepted that the purity of "Balloon Grade" Helium is around 99% https://www.quantum-technology.com/recover/balloon-grade-helium-recovery.html https://www.quantum-technology.com/recover/balloon-grade-hel... Sounds high, but not pure enough for MRI applications, and it isn't currently economical to reliquefy without shipping it to a processor. > Manufacturers have stated that this wasted helium is considered a ‘recycled product’ as it would have been lost to the environment had it not been captured and re-purposed. If the balloon market demand declined, manufacturers would have to re-evaluate other markets and consider the possibilities of re-liquefying it. Re-liquefying is currently considered uneconomical from the locations of where the filling application take place. https://www.partysafe.eu/balloon-and-gas-helium https://www.partysafe.eu/balloon-and-gas-helium Also it's small, but not insignificant, sector of the market: > "A reasonable estimate is that latex 'party' balloons and their foil equivalent account for between 5% and 7% of the total helium usage." https://www.theguardian.com/science/shortcuts/2012/dec/11/should-we-ban-helium-balloons https://www.theguardian.com/science/shortcuts/2012/dec/11/sh...
spacebacon 3y ago
I have 3 foil party balloons still inflated after 2 months and 3 days. I left them by the window as heat from the sun provides kinetic energy to the helium atoms to improve the balloons longevity. These three balloons have provided me with enough joy to keep me inside staring at them all day not outside at risk of injury which ultimately leads to an unnecessary MRI.
- saagarjha 3y ago
  > heat from the sun provides kinetic energy to the helium atoms to improve the balloons longevity How does that work?
  - johndunne 3y ago
    Gas pressure is the atoms/molecules bouncing off something else. If the atoms have more energy, then they impart more energy into whatever they bounce off (inside of the balloon), which essentially means higher pressure i.e. the balloon appears inflated again. Until the sun goes away and the OP's party dies for a time. :)
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      How does that increase longevity, thought? Seems like it just inflates the balloon more?
- shermantanktop 3y ago
  When those balloons finally fail, sounds like it’s just a matter of time before you end up in the noisy donut once again.
  - spacebacon 3y ago
    Everything we know is matter and time. No one is immune.
    - shermantanktop 3y ago
kragen 3y ago
why don't you fund the life-saving diagnostics enough that they can outbid birthday party planners? i'm not convinced birthday party planners are rich enough anywhere in the world that this is an actual problem

grogers 3y ago

I don't know if this is the only reason, but superconuctors have a critical magnetic field that is also related to temperature (higher temp = lower magnetic field). So even if a material is superconducting at liquid nitrogen temperature, that doesn't mean it can produce a strong enough magnetic field for an MRI at that high a temp.

cyberax 3y ago

> If anything this feels like a cost issue not a pure technology issue... It IS a technology issue. High-TC superconductors are basically ceramics, meaning that they are brittle. And a good simulation of MRI experience is being inside a trash can that other people hit with baseball bats. We are only now starting to get high-TC superconductors in the form of tape, but it's not yet ready to replace low-TC superconductors. BTW, it's also the reason we're hearing about so many new fusion startups trying to utilize it. It _should_ provide an order of magnitude cost decreases compared to liquid-helium. But it's still something that only startups are using.

gclawes 3y ago
The tape is good enough for fusion reactors but not MRIs?
- cyberax 3y ago
  It's good enough for _startups_ working on fusion reactors, they can tolerate a bit of risk. But not for established companies making safety-critical equipment. And modern MRI machines are not that expensive either, mass production made them surprisingly affordable. A top-of-the-line machine is around $700k, and mid-range devices are $300-$400k (and now I want one in my backyard...). So the savings on high-TC supeconductors would not be that impressive overall.
  - DoingIsLearning 3y ago
    Is 700k the manufacturing cost or a retail price? I thought they were close to 2M on the higher res end.
    - cyberax 3y ago
      It's a list price. You'll obviously also need to pay for installation, delivery, and service. There's apparently even a robust second-hand market for them: https://bimedis.com/search/search-items/magnetic-resonance-imaging-mri-machines https://bimedis.com/search/search-items/magnetic-resonance-i...