6 ms·

Honestly, after being in the software industry for a couple of decades and seeing how many times folks attempt to reinvent the wheel (for commercial or other re

Honestly, after being in the software industry for a couple of decades and seeing how many times folks attempt to reinvent the wheel (for commercial or other reasons), I am beginning to sigh when I see how many language zealots there are (not you, just in general). The reality is, Rust does not need to replace everything. Nor should it be held on some kind of pedestal. E.G. Curiosity rover is doing just fine running on millions of lines of C. https://vdocuments.mx/monitoring-the-execution-of-space-craft-flight-software.html?page=11 https://vdocuments.mx/monitoring-the-execution-of-space-craf... If it's going to impact OS stability and decrease performance and portability of the humble, dependable, simple C, it doesn't belong in the core. C is better than Rust for OS development.

saagarjha 3y ago
The C code that went into the Curiosity rover was quite expensive.
richardwhiuk 3y ago
I assume you are still programming in COBOL?
- nocombination 3y ago
  It's not what you program in that matters—it's how you test and ensure quality results.
  - littlestymaar 3y ago
    The amount of budget and time you have for the all project is finished, and in practice it's much easier for management to skip testing and QA than to reduce the scope of the project / the amount of features.hence the terrible quality that's plaguing this entire industry.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    I like that Rust tests my code as I write it.
    - dboreham 3y ago
      Looks for lollipop...
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    That's stupid the language you write in has a huge effect on how you test and ensure quality results. They aren't separate things. E.g. at one end of the spectrum you have Python where you have to write explicit tests for typos and type errors. At the other end of the spectrum you have formal verification languages like Dafny that may not require any tests to be written. Rust is somewhere in-between. It has a very strong type system and lots of features that make memory errors and business errors less likely than in most other languages. You still need some tests, but not as many as with C/C++, Python, JavaScript, etc.
  - yencabulator 3y ago
    It's really hard to test for security. It's much more feasibly to be secure by construction.
- ben_bai 3y ago
  Just like C, COBOL will always be with us. > According to research, up to 850 billion lines of COBOL code are currently running in nearly 30,000 organizations, typically in critical production environments. 90 percent of Fortune 500 companies rely on it. Never has there been this much COBOL in circulation and the volume is only likely to increase for the foreseeable future. https://www.chrly.pt/en/2023/06/14/cobol-the-immortal-language/ https://www.chrly.pt/en/2023/06/14/cobol-the-immortal-langua...
timeon 3y ago
How is this relevant to parent comment?
jimberlage 3y ago
The Curiosity rover might be doing ok, but the many places that have my social security number are not. I care more about the latter than the former.
- kjs3 3y ago
  the many places that have my social security number So COBOL everywhere it is. Let it be written, let it be done.
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Actually it isn't susceptible to C's security flaws, and is a compiled language, with relatively good performance. :)
    - justincredible 3y ago
      [dead]
- nocombination 3y ago
  Right—and maybe those places ought to install OpenBSD. https://www.openbsd.org/ https://www.openbsd.org/ Rust is not immune to security vulnerabilities. And at the end of the day, social engineering will steal more data than "hacking the mainframe". Why break in when you can just ask to be let in? OpenBSD has a great security track record because they resist excessive change and prefer simplicity. For those who want to add Rust to the core of FreeBSD my primary question: is it really necessary? Or is it just because a bunch of Rustaceans want to?
  - mcronce 3y ago
    Not solving all security issues isn't the same as not solving security issues. I'd rather my financial data be handled by software written in something that solves many whole classes of vulnerabilities than something that solves none of them.
pjmlp 3y ago
I doubt many C devs would be doing fine coding under the same level of quality expected by NASA / JPL programming standards and security validation.

saagarjha 3y ago

The C code that went into the Curiosity rover was quite expensive.

richardwhiuk 3y ago

I assume you are still programming in COBOL?

nocombination 3y ago
It's not what you program in that matters—it's how you test and ensure quality results.
- littlestymaar 3y ago
  The amount of budget and time you have for the all project is finished, and in practice it's much easier for management to skip testing and QA than to reduce the scope of the project / the amount of features.hence the terrible quality that's plaguing this entire industry.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  I like that Rust tests my code as I write it.
  - dboreham 3y ago
    Looks for lollipop...
- IshKebab 3y ago
  That's stupid the language you write in has a huge effect on how you test and ensure quality results. They aren't separate things. E.g. at one end of the spectrum you have Python where you have to write explicit tests for typos and type errors. At the other end of the spectrum you have formal verification languages like Dafny that may not require any tests to be written. Rust is somewhere in-between. It has a very strong type system and lots of features that make memory errors and business errors less likely than in most other languages. You still need some tests, but not as many as with C/C++, Python, JavaScript, etc.
- yencabulator 3y ago
  It's really hard to test for security. It's much more feasibly to be secure by construction.
ben_bai 3y ago
Just like C, COBOL will always be with us. > According to research, up to 850 billion lines of COBOL code are currently running in nearly 30,000 organizations, typically in critical production environments. 90 percent of Fortune 500 companies rely on it. Never has there been this much COBOL in circulation and the volume is only likely to increase for the foreseeable future. https://www.chrly.pt/en/2023/06/14/cobol-the-immortal-language/ https://www.chrly.pt/en/2023/06/14/cobol-the-immortal-langua...

timeon 3y ago

How is this relevant to parent comment?

jimberlage 3y ago

The Curiosity rover might be doing ok, but the many places that have my social security number are not. I care more about the latter than the former.

kjs3 3y ago
the many places that have my social security number So COBOL everywhere it is. Let it be written, let it be done.
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Actually it isn't susceptible to C's security flaws, and is a compiled language, with relatively good performance. :)
  - justincredible 3y ago
    [dead]
nocombination 3y ago
Right—and maybe those places ought to install OpenBSD. https://www.openbsd.org/ https://www.openbsd.org/ Rust is not immune to security vulnerabilities. And at the end of the day, social engineering will steal more data than "hacking the mainframe". Why break in when you can just ask to be let in? OpenBSD has a great security track record because they resist excessive change and prefer simplicity. For those who want to add Rust to the core of FreeBSD my primary question: is it really necessary? Or is it just because a bunch of Rustaceans want to?
- mcronce 3y ago
  Not solving all security issues isn't the same as not solving security issues. I'd rather my financial data be handled by software written in something that solves many whole classes of vulnerabilities than something that solves none of them.

pjmlp 3y ago

I doubt many C devs would be doing fine coding under the same level of quality expected by NASA / JPL programming standards and security validation.