7 ms·

Being in the medtech/AI industry (our company, Eyenuk, created the 2nd autonomous AI approved by the FDA), nothing seems too strange here. I've seen subscripti

Being in the medtech/AI industry (our company, Eyenuk, created the 2nd autonomous AI approved by the FDA), nothing seems too strange here. I've seen subscriptions supported, and the pricing doesn't seem alarming. If you look at any medical bill that includes lab work, or anything medical related, this is really cheap comparatively. The cost of everything is required to lure companies into the space. The cost of research, running a clinical trial, the FDA approval, certifications (SOC2, etc.), insurance, etc. still push many companies away. In fact, in the EU, where the cost is lower, the approval process is getting harder (MDR) and many companies are leaving the market.

hereme888 3y ago
Why can't companies just charge X price, once, since it's already FDA approved (hence I assume models are validated), and in the future any upgrades cost Y? It comes across as predatory that users be charged subscriptions for something that seems like it should be fixed. Aren't other medical devices and drugs sold for a fixed price, regardless of all the FDA approval and marketing they had to go through? Like, no one pays a subscription fee for an X-ray machine, or a subscription for a course of antibiotics.
- icegreentea2 3y ago
  Antibiotics are consumables - in a B2B context (it's a medical service provider who is paying the subscription fee), antibiotics are basically a subscription. Many (most?) diagnostic devices have consumables which is where companies make the bulk of their revenue. Failing that, service contracts are usually in place to lock in some sort of sustained reoccuring revenue. There is no fundamental reason why a company couldn't do your proposed model, but upgrades are definitely challenging - if you make your model better, or you improve your hardware, or basically do anything that isn't a bug fix or an ancillary upgrade (like I dunno, you made the thing boot up 25% faster), will likely require additional testing and approval from the FDA.
  - NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
    One of the genius medical marketing tactics was to create disposable condoms for thermometers, ear probes, etc., so that you can use one up for each patient and then purchase a whole big box of them on a subscription basis, rather than going through a simple bottle of sanitizer that could clean anything and everything that needs it. (And then of course, nobody cleans the probe underneath, as it just gets slightly grodier with each use.)
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      We didn't invent it. We in this industry refer to this as the "razor - razorblade model". Nothing is ever new.
    - hereme888 3y ago
      That's not why disposables were adopted. A "simple bottle of sanitizer" is less likely to get rid of biofilm and spores, especially given the laziness and error of end-users. Disposables are inherently safer. Lots of trash, and more expensive, but the best option for wealthy nations that can afford the best care.
  - hereme888 3y ago
    I wouldn't pay for a 25% faster bootup unless it was an emergency life-saving device. You'd have to sell me something significantly better and worth my money, like any other seller in the world has to do with their product, from computers, to cars, to fast food. I'm not sure that a software upgrade would require FDA approval, but product testing is a cost incurred by anyone in any industry. Even a new burger recipe would be tested at the restaurant's own expense. That doesn't seem to justify a subscription model (after paying the initial cost of the device, etc).
- iancmceachern 3y ago
  Software, it's never done. An x ray machine does the same thing all the time, no Software maintenance needed. If you have a product that has a cloud component, any component to it where it needs to be maintenance from a security standpoint, that has cost, you need to cover that cost.
  - hereme888 3y ago
    Modern X-ray machines use software to receive the image and view it. If the models already work, why would it even require a cloud component? That's just risky, complex, and costly. Let the device do its thing, doc writes down the findings, data gets deleted, and device ready for next patient.
    - iancmceachern 3y ago
      Yes, but they don't interpret it. They aren't using AI or the cloud component to do what they can already do. The whole promise that all these companies are pitching is to aggregate patient data over time, tie it to clinically measurable metrics so they can detect, prevent or treat things better. In your example the idea would be the model in the cloud is aggregating all the patient health record data, tying that to the xrays of those same patients, so that in the future the model can see things in x-rays that indicate disease or are predacessors to disease before we humans can even spot them. All that takes money.
      - hereme888 3y ago
        Not quite the example I was explaining. In my example the validated/FDA-approved model runs on local hardware, at the physician's energy bill. Need an A6000 GPU? Fine, I'll buy it. If the vendor wants to improve the model, they can ask for anonymized data from physicians, if they're willing to provide it. That's their cost of developing a better product, just like anyone in any industry pays a price in some way to improve their product.
        iancmceachern 3y ago
- sciclaw 3y ago
  There are a lot of ongoing costs as well. Medical insurance is expensive, and there's a lot of process that is ongoing. A lot of effort goes into security, both monitoring and pushing updates. Medical device companies must also undergo regular audits of our quality systems, look up QMS/eQMS, where FDA reps will spend about 1 week a year reviewing everything we've done over the last year. Generating all the documents for those audits takes a lot of time (aka cost). That's not complete list, but this is in addition to regular SaSS costs.
hereme888 3y ago
Also, Eyenuk products looks great. My wife will start PCP practice soon. I'm going to ask for a brochure ;)

hereme888 3y ago

Why can't companies just charge X price, once, since it's already FDA approved (hence I assume models are validated), and in the future any upgrades cost Y? It comes across as predatory that users be charged subscriptions for something that seems like it should be fixed. Aren't other medical devices and drugs sold for a fixed price, regardless of all the FDA approval and marketing they had to go through? Like, no one pays a subscription fee for an X-ray machine, or a subscription for a course of antibiotics.

icegreentea2 3y ago
Antibiotics are consumables - in a B2B context (it's a medical service provider who is paying the subscription fee), antibiotics are basically a subscription. Many (most?) diagnostic devices have consumables which is where companies make the bulk of their revenue. Failing that, service contracts are usually in place to lock in some sort of sustained reoccuring revenue. There is no fundamental reason why a company couldn't do your proposed model, but upgrades are definitely challenging - if you make your model better, or you improve your hardware, or basically do anything that isn't a bug fix or an ancillary upgrade (like I dunno, you made the thing boot up 25% faster), will likely require additional testing and approval from the FDA.
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  One of the genius medical marketing tactics was to create disposable condoms for thermometers, ear probes, etc., so that you can use one up for each patient and then purchase a whole big box of them on a subscription basis, rather than going through a simple bottle of sanitizer that could clean anything and everything that needs it. (And then of course, nobody cleans the probe underneath, as it just gets slightly grodier with each use.)
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    We didn't invent it. We in this industry refer to this as the "razor - razorblade model". Nothing is ever new.
  - hereme888 3y ago
    That's not why disposables were adopted. A "simple bottle of sanitizer" is less likely to get rid of biofilm and spores, especially given the laziness and error of end-users. Disposables are inherently safer. Lots of trash, and more expensive, but the best option for wealthy nations that can afford the best care.
- hereme888 3y ago
  I wouldn't pay for a 25% faster bootup unless it was an emergency life-saving device. You'd have to sell me something significantly better and worth my money, like any other seller in the world has to do with their product, from computers, to cars, to fast food. I'm not sure that a software upgrade would require FDA approval, but product testing is a cost incurred by anyone in any industry. Even a new burger recipe would be tested at the restaurant's own expense. That doesn't seem to justify a subscription model (after paying the initial cost of the device, etc).
iancmceachern 3y ago
Software, it's never done. An x ray machine does the same thing all the time, no Software maintenance needed. If you have a product that has a cloud component, any component to it where it needs to be maintenance from a security standpoint, that has cost, you need to cover that cost.
- hereme888 3y ago
  Modern X-ray machines use software to receive the image and view it. If the models already work, why would it even require a cloud component? That's just risky, complex, and costly. Let the device do its thing, doc writes down the findings, data gets deleted, and device ready for next patient.
  - iancmceachern 3y ago
    Yes, but they don't interpret it. They aren't using AI or the cloud component to do what they can already do. The whole promise that all these companies are pitching is to aggregate patient data over time, tie it to clinically measurable metrics so they can detect, prevent or treat things better. In your example the idea would be the model in the cloud is aggregating all the patient health record data, tying that to the xrays of those same patients, so that in the future the model can see things in x-rays that indicate disease or are predacessors to disease before we humans can even spot them. All that takes money.
    - hereme888 3y ago
      Not quite the example I was explaining. In my example the validated/FDA-approved model runs on local hardware, at the physician's energy bill. Need an A6000 GPU? Fine, I'll buy it. If the vendor wants to improve the model, they can ask for anonymized data from physicians, if they're willing to provide it. That's their cost of developing a better product, just like anyone in any industry pays a price in some way to improve their product.
      - iancmceachern 3y ago
sciclaw 3y ago
There are a lot of ongoing costs as well. Medical insurance is expensive, and there's a lot of process that is ongoing. A lot of effort goes into security, both monitoring and pushing updates. Medical device companies must also undergo regular audits of our quality systems, look up QMS/eQMS, where FDA reps will spend about 1 week a year reviewing everything we've done over the last year. Generating all the documents for those audits takes a lot of time (aka cost). That's not complete list, but this is in addition to regular SaSS costs.

hereme888 3y ago

Also, Eyenuk products looks great. My wife will start PCP practice soon. I'm going to ask for a brochure ;)