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Apple must allow alternate payment modes without imposing a gatekeeper tax. It must be consistent without exceptions (i.e. not just Amazon). The issue is not th

Apple must allow alternate payment modes without imposing a gatekeeper tax. It must be consistent without exceptions (i.e. not just Amazon). The issue is not the gratuitous fee, it is the lack of choice. iOS is more ubiquitous than macOS yet more restrictive--it cannot last. This entitlement is so restrictive -- it just seems vindictive. Apple's market share and success means additional responsibility. The argument that it's their App Store and therefore they can do whatever they want is a dubious defence. They owe their loyal developers more than this.

huytersd 3y ago
They have loyal devs and a monetizable ecosystem for devs exactly because they have their policies in place. Apple doesn’t cut corners with short term thinking like your comment.
- satvikpendem 3y ago
  By that logic, we should have let Standard Oil or AT&T do as they pleased, since they too had loyal customers.
- 0xfaded 3y ago
  Their long term thinking includes leveraging bullying over their iMessage lock-in to ensure market capture of children. I believe there are leaked emails floating around which pretty much irrefutablly confirm this.
- postalrat 3y ago
  What corners are being cut?
nostromo 3y ago
I will risk an avalanche of downvotes and steel man Apple's argument. :) Have you ever gotten stuck with a monthly fee for something that's hard to cancel? It's a real pain the butt, no? But that never really happens on Apple devices, because Apple makes it incredibly easy to cancel subscriptions. You don't have to call anyone, you don't have to struggle with a bad website -- you just click cancel on your phone and it's done. And it's all in one place too -- no bank statement required. They are also a check on other dark patterns, like silently increasing charges without a clear notification to customers. I don't even get spammed because Apple proxies my emails from app developers. One of the main reasons I buy things from Apple (on my device) and Amazon (if it's a physical good) is so that I have a company I sorta trust to do the right thing if things go sideways (cancelations, returns, fraud, etc.). Once every app developer is pushing me to enter my credit card on their website, that all goes out the window. Dark patterns common on the web and on Android will take over the iOS ecosystem too. I also am going to take an unpopular opinion and say that Apple probably earns that fee. The fact that Android isn't that valuable to app developers proves that Apple's reputation and standards are what drives a lot of their app store revenue. App devs feel like they're providing all the value, but I suspect it's often not truly the case. I know this is an unpopular opinion amongst us devs. I don't even know if I truly buy these arguments, but I thought it'd be more interesting here if there was at least one comment defending Apple.
- OsrsNeedsf2P 3y ago
  The main argument that you buy Apple because you can trust the payment system doesn't really go against the anticompetitive argument Epic is making. Re Android: * Android has the same 30% fee * Android controls the Play Store IAPs (dark patterns) almost identically to Apple - Mobile dev of 3 years
  - NetOpWibby 3y ago
    Personally, Android's ecosystem has never been compelling because of Google. Even barring their unrelenting focus on gobbling more of your data, they can't even keep their services on. Their graveyard is massive. How many times has their default messages app changed? It's nuts. Being an Android developer seems like an exercise in frustration. I'm sure it happens on iOS to some degree but I've seen people online brag about never buying an Android app; piracy is rampant. We desperately need a third option.
    - cyberax 3y ago
      > Personally, Android's ecosystem has never been compelling because of Google. Even barring their unrelenting focus on gobbling more of your data, they can't even keep their services on. Their graveyard is massive. Who cares? If you're developing for Android, you don't need to care about Google killing off Stadia. > How many times has their default messages app changed? It's nuts. Being an Android developer seems like an exercise in frustration. Again, who cares? I'm using the same messaging apps that I was using 10 years ago. And it's not like Apple is any better. It has standardized on iMessage, but you can't do anything with it as a developer. It might as well not exist for you.
      - NetOpWibby 3y ago
        > Again, who cares? I'm using the same messaging apps that I was using 10 years ago. One of my best friends who was using Allo. Or Duo. Or Hangouts. Or Meet. Or whatever. He really loved one of those apps and it got removed/changed/or something. My point was that as a developer, I'd want to ensure users like the platform they're on enough to buy my app. This same friend? He moved to some launcher and just uses Discord and Element now. As I understand it, using a launcher prevents you from using the Google Play Store, so you're not buying apps. EDIT: See also: https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/21/22538240/google-chat-allo-hangouts-talk-messaging-mess-timeline https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/21/22538240/google-chat-allo...
dangus 3y ago
The courts specifically took this issue off the table. It sounds shocking and unfair, but if you read what they said they point out that this is a pretty standard practice among similar industries. The App Store isn’t just a payment processor. It’s giving you access to Apple IP (e.g., development tools, standard libraries, etc). Apple wrote libraries like SwiftUI and UIKit that are all proprietary code. That SDK saves you the effort of writing all that code yourself as the app developer. The court from the start basically declared that this is what everyone else does. Epic themselves operate this way - check out the licensing model for Unreal Engine. There was no antitrust issue being litigated here. We can all believe that there should be, but there isn’t, and this isn’t the right type of court for that issue. Technically, the court granted Epic’s wish, Apple is now giving you the freedom to choose a different payment processor and deducting the market rate cost of doing so. The only bit left to resolve is whether Epic’s argument that Apple’s compliance is not in good faith sticks.
lolinder 3y ago
This argument has been repeatedly made over the past 24 hours with a lot of emotion but little justification. The judge forced Apple to unbundle their payments. Apple's solution to that is probably overly restrictive. And I suspect that you're right that 27% is too large a cut to survive. With both of those points granted, though, your argument seems to be that Apple should be obliged to host, distribute, and market apps (including the burden of moderation and malware prevention) for free. That any commission is too much of a commission. Can I ask you to elaborate on why you believe that Apple should be singled out and mandated to perform a service for free?
- beanjuiceII 3y ago
  They don't have to perform that service if they allow other app stores or people install apps like they can on macos. The app store is more for Apple than it is for devs
- OsrsNeedsf2P 3y ago
  Other than the fact I spent 1'000$ on my iPhone?
- Someone 3y ago
  > And I suspect that you're right that 27% is too large a cut to survive. I don’t see that being killed soon. The 3% for payment processors is a lot higher than the 0,2% or 0,3% limits for debet/credit card payments within the EU (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-card-based-payments.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-..., and AFAIK no payment processor decided to leave the EU market because they couldn’t earn money anymore. There also is ‘prior art’ for that 3%/27% split in the case of dating apps in the Netherlands, where the Dutch regulator declared that OK (https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/13/apple-dutch-dating-apps-payment-order-compliance https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/13/apple-dutch-dating-apps-pa...). AFAIK, there hasn’t been further action on that front.
  - TillE 3y ago
    That regulation seems completely irrelevant, PayPal charges much more than that in Europe.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
aurareturn 3y ago
>Apple must allow alternate payment modes without imposing a gatekeeper tax. And I want to put my product in Walmart for free while Walmart pays for the warehouse, staff, marketing, returns, and product inspection.
- brandon272 3y ago
  How is a phone that I pay for at all analagous to Walmart?
  - aurareturn 3y ago
    I thought we were trying to make statements that made no sense.
    - brandon272 3y ago
      Nothing nonsensical about developers wanting better treatment or a better deal from a company asking for 30% of their gross margin. Insofar that Walmart extracts margin out of its small suppliers, we don't see a lot of third parties sitting on the sidelines telling suppliers trying to negotiate better contracts that they need to shut up, pay up and that the third parties are "on Walmarts side". To the extent that small suppliers wish to negotiate better contracts or apply pressure to a behemoth company for a better deal, I say 'have at it'.
      - aurareturn 3y ago
        Nothing nonsensical about developers wanting better treatment or a better deal from a company asking for 30% of their gross margin. I was replying to a person who thinks Apple needs to provide everything for free.
        brandon272 3y ago
        Apple allows developers to distribute their apps on MacOS “for free”, so I’m not sure why asking for similar treatment on iOS is considered such a bizarre, insane request.

huytersd 3y ago

They have loyal devs and a monetizable ecosystem for devs exactly because they have their policies in place. Apple doesn’t cut corners with short term thinking like your comment.

satvikpendem 3y ago
By that logic, we should have let Standard Oil or AT&T do as they pleased, since they too had loyal customers.
0xfaded 3y ago
Their long term thinking includes leveraging bullying over their iMessage lock-in to ensure market capture of children. I believe there are leaked emails floating around which pretty much irrefutablly confirm this.
postalrat 3y ago
What corners are being cut?

nostromo 3y ago

I will risk an avalanche of downvotes and steel man Apple's argument. :) Have you ever gotten stuck with a monthly fee for something that's hard to cancel? It's a real pain the butt, no? But that never really happens on Apple devices, because Apple makes it incredibly easy to cancel subscriptions. You don't have to call anyone, you don't have to struggle with a bad website -- you just click cancel on your phone and it's done. And it's all in one place too -- no bank statement required. They are also a check on other dark patterns, like silently increasing charges without a clear notification to customers. I don't even get spammed because Apple proxies my emails from app developers. One of the main reasons I buy things from Apple (on my device) and Amazon (if it's a physical good) is so that I have a company I sorta trust to do the right thing if things go sideways (cancelations, returns, fraud, etc.). Once every app developer is pushing me to enter my credit card on their website, that all goes out the window. Dark patterns common on the web and on Android will take over the iOS ecosystem too. I also am going to take an unpopular opinion and say that Apple probably earns that fee. The fact that Android isn't that valuable to app developers proves that Apple's reputation and standards are what drives a lot of their app store revenue. App devs feel like they're providing all the value, but I suspect it's often not truly the case. I know this is an unpopular opinion amongst us devs. I don't even know if I truly buy these arguments, but I thought it'd be more interesting here if there was at least one comment defending Apple.

OsrsNeedsf2P 3y ago
The main argument that you buy Apple because you can trust the payment system doesn't really go against the anticompetitive argument Epic is making. Re Android: * Android has the same 30% fee * Android controls the Play Store IAPs (dark patterns) almost identically to Apple - Mobile dev of 3 years
- NetOpWibby 3y ago
  Personally, Android's ecosystem has never been compelling because of Google. Even barring their unrelenting focus on gobbling more of your data, they can't even keep their services on. Their graveyard is massive. How many times has their default messages app changed? It's nuts. Being an Android developer seems like an exercise in frustration. I'm sure it happens on iOS to some degree but I've seen people online brag about never buying an Android app; piracy is rampant. We desperately need a third option.
  - cyberax 3y ago
    > Personally, Android's ecosystem has never been compelling because of Google. Even barring their unrelenting focus on gobbling more of your data, they can't even keep their services on. Their graveyard is massive. Who cares? If you're developing for Android, you don't need to care about Google killing off Stadia. > How many times has their default messages app changed? It's nuts. Being an Android developer seems like an exercise in frustration. Again, who cares? I'm using the same messaging apps that I was using 10 years ago. And it's not like Apple is any better. It has standardized on iMessage, but you can't do anything with it as a developer. It might as well not exist for you.
    - NetOpWibby 3y ago
      > Again, who cares? I'm using the same messaging apps that I was using 10 years ago. One of my best friends who was using Allo. Or Duo. Or Hangouts. Or Meet. Or whatever. He really loved one of those apps and it got removed/changed/or something. My point was that as a developer, I'd want to ensure users like the platform they're on enough to buy my app. This same friend? He moved to some launcher and just uses Discord and Element now. As I understand it, using a launcher prevents you from using the Google Play Store, so you're not buying apps. EDIT: See also: https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/21/22538240/google-chat-allo-hangouts-talk-messaging-mess-timeline https://www.theverge.com/2021/6/21/22538240/google-chat-allo...

dangus 3y ago

The courts specifically took this issue off the table. It sounds shocking and unfair, but if you read what they said they point out that this is a pretty standard practice among similar industries. The App Store isn’t just a payment processor. It’s giving you access to Apple IP (e.g., development tools, standard libraries, etc). Apple wrote libraries like SwiftUI and UIKit that are all proprietary code. That SDK saves you the effort of writing all that code yourself as the app developer. The court from the start basically declared that this is what everyone else does. Epic themselves operate this way - check out the licensing model for Unreal Engine. There was no antitrust issue being litigated here. We can all believe that there should be, but there isn’t, and this isn’t the right type of court for that issue. Technically, the court granted Epic’s wish, Apple is now giving you the freedom to choose a different payment processor and deducting the market rate cost of doing so. The only bit left to resolve is whether Epic’s argument that Apple’s compliance is not in good faith sticks.

lolinder 3y ago

This argument has been repeatedly made over the past 24 hours with a lot of emotion but little justification. The judge forced Apple to unbundle their payments. Apple's solution to that is probably overly restrictive. And I suspect that you're right that 27% is too large a cut to survive. With both of those points granted, though, your argument seems to be that Apple should be obliged to host, distribute, and market apps (including the burden of moderation and malware prevention) for free. That any commission is too much of a commission. Can I ask you to elaborate on why you believe that Apple should be singled out and mandated to perform a service for free?

beanjuiceII 3y ago
They don't have to perform that service if they allow other app stores or people install apps like they can on macos. The app store is more for Apple than it is for devs
OsrsNeedsf2P 3y ago
Other than the fact I spent 1'000$ on my iPhone?
Someone 3y ago
> And I suspect that you're right that 27% is too large a cut to survive. I don’t see that being killed soon. The 3% for payment processors is a lot higher than the 0,2% or 0,3% limits for debet/credit card payments within the EU (https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-card-based-payments.html https://eur-lex.europa.eu/EN/legal-content/summary/fees-for-..., and AFAIK no payment processor decided to leave the EU market because they couldn’t earn money anymore. There also is ‘prior art’ for that 3%/27% split in the case of dating apps in the Netherlands, where the Dutch regulator declared that OK (https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/13/apple-dutch-dating-apps-payment-order-compliance https://techcrunch.com/2022/06/13/apple-dutch-dating-apps-pa...). AFAIK, there hasn’t been further action on that front.
- TillE 3y ago
  That regulation seems completely irrelevant, PayPal charges much more than that in Europe.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

aurareturn 3y ago

>Apple must allow alternate payment modes without imposing a gatekeeper tax. And I want to put my product in Walmart for free while Walmart pays for the warehouse, staff, marketing, returns, and product inspection.

brandon272 3y ago
How is a phone that I pay for at all analagous to Walmart?
- aurareturn 3y ago
  I thought we were trying to make statements that made no sense.
  - brandon272 3y ago
    Nothing nonsensical about developers wanting better treatment or a better deal from a company asking for 30% of their gross margin. Insofar that Walmart extracts margin out of its small suppliers, we don't see a lot of third parties sitting on the sidelines telling suppliers trying to negotiate better contracts that they need to shut up, pay up and that the third parties are "on Walmarts side". To the extent that small suppliers wish to negotiate better contracts or apply pressure to a behemoth company for a better deal, I say 'have at it'.
    - aurareturn 3y ago
      Nothing nonsensical about developers wanting better treatment or a better deal from a company asking for 30% of their gross margin. I was replying to a person who thinks Apple needs to provide everything for free.
      - brandon272 3y ago
        Apple allows developers to distribute their apps on MacOS “for free”, so I’m not sure why asking for similar treatment on iOS is considered such a bizarre, insane request.