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I think for many people the fact it is a tightly walled garden is a feature - those walls keep bad actors out. For many people a phone is just a tool, and they'

by bb123 3y ago

I think for many people the fact it is a tightly walled garden is a feature - those walls keep bad actors out. For many people a phone is just a tool, and they're quite happy to pay a tax to make it trouble free. The generation of my parents (60s+) is generally not hugely tech savvy. They remember the days of windows XP well - endless viruses, trojans and expensive security software. One of the reasons iPhones are so popular with this group is they let them use the web without fear of dealing with that again.

logicprog 3y ago
Right, but you can get the benefit of the walled garden by just... choosing to only install apps that have been vetted and verified by Apple through their app store, and not from anywhere else. These people are acting like the possibility of getting apps from elsewhere personally affects them, but if they are competent enough adults to know that it's more secure to get apps from the Apple App Store, then it won't, because they aren't forced to use other apps. And yeah maybe that isn't possible for old people or very young people because they aren't competent adults anymore, technologically speaking, but then maybe you could add a parental controls feature that locks down side loading apps or something like that. You don't need to remove the feature entirely to make everyone safe.
- bb123 3y ago
  I think it will be very hard to do that when the other big players move their apps off the store. They will be effectively forced to download apps like WhatsApp and Instagram from wherever Meta puts them. The net result is more hassle, more risk, and worse privacy and security for them. How is that a win?
  - lnxg33k1 3y ago
    Do you think that meta will give up their presence on the official app store in order to move to a unofficial app store? Because apple will not allow apps on apple app store if they are unofficial, i have no data, but I suspect they will not
    - ensignavenger 3y ago
      Meta could have done that on Android, they have not, there is your data... it seems that as long as Apple remains a trusted and reasonable partner, Meta will continue to use Apples App Store to distribute their apps, just like they continue to use Google's Play Store today.
  - eviks 3y ago
    > They remember the days of windows XP well - endless viruses, trojans and expensive security software. >They will be effectively forced to download apps like WhatsApp and Instagram from wherever Meta puts them So, what's the connect? You've started with big scary viruses and ended up with WhatsApp?
    - bb123 3y ago
      I'm looking at it from the perspective of my parents. For them it is a major feature of the iPhone that you can download any app with complete impunity. No need for $150/year antivirus (for those big scary viruses windows used to get absolutely riddled with). No need to worry it's going to change your default search engine or start mining bitcoin. You know when you download something from the App Store it has been through some level of vetting. I'm not sure why so many people here are wilfully blind to this use case. Also, the reason I specifically bring up WhatsApp is that we know Facebook will take ridiculous liberties given the chance - remember Onavo?
      - lnxg33k1 3y ago
        The thing is that apple app store is also filled with scammy apps, so the argument is flawed at the start, you can’t outsource your security and act on the internet like youre blind and doesn’t affect you, you need to be attentive
        rvz 3y ago
        > The thing is that apple app store is also filled with scammy apps, so the argument is flawed at the start So you think to improve the security is to make the problem even worse by having more installable unchecked ransomware on the iPhone. Really can’t wait for the flood of sideloaded malware and ransomware that made Android phones the insecure toxic hellstew that it still is today; on the iPhone. /s
        smoldesu 3y ago
        I can't wait either. I've got a number of sideloaded apps on my Android phone (Netguard, KeePassDX, even a Hacker News client to name a few) and have no viruses to speak of. Closest thing to malware I can notice is the OEM software.
  - dns_snek 3y ago
    Privacy and security (of other data on your phone) should be ensured through technological measures like strict sandboxing and permissions that allow sensor data to be spoofed. This is largely already the case, but any remaining gaps should be filled with technological barriers, not underpaid human reviewers prone to mistakes, favoritism, and politics.
  - abhibeckert 3y ago
    If Meta does that, they will be creating their own walled garden next to the Apple one. Meta won't allow pirated software and malware to run rampant on their own store.
  - Krssst 3y ago
    > when the other big players move their apps off the store. It did not happen on Android.
- dylan604 3y ago
  > but if they are competent enough adults and there's where the wheels fell off the bus with your argument. so many non-adults are using devices and downloading content. if their friends are using a non-Apple store and all using an app from there, they will follow. we'll see what kind of parental controls any 3rd party app store provide. teens will absolutely look for ways to skirt anything their parents are using to limit them. it's just part of being a teen.
- intended 3y ago
  My Grandfather had an android. When I helped him out, he had 3 different SMS apps installed. You are essentially assuming everyone has the same level of survival skills to survive the technological wilderness as yourself. Most of humanity would just end up as prey. The walled garden keeps predatory behavior out.
- wayfinder 3y ago
  Expecting people to know what makes an app store safe is like expecting people to know how to change their spark plugs. It’s a niche skill. The only people who are going to know are into the hobby. Your average person does not have “computers” as a hobby. In the same vein, I’m not going to give you shit that you don’t know how to change your spark plugs off your head even though it’s so basic.
glimshe 3y ago
My inlaws got scammed for 5K when a person calling, apparently from Apple, and convinced them to install an app on an iPhone that eventually got a foothold on their bank account. The same is also possible on Android, but I just wanted to say that even the iPhone can have some of these old problems.
cubefox 3y ago
> The generation of my parents (60s+) is generally not hugely tech savvy. They remember the days of windows XP well - endless viruses, trojans and expensive security software. One of the reasons iPhones are so popular with this group is they let them use the web without fear of dealing with that again. This is a strange argument, given that Windows XP is more than 20 years old, and the problem already went mostly away 20 years ago, when Service Pack 2 came out. In any case, the problem has long been a thing from the past. Moreover, I don't see anyone complaining about modern Windows or MacOS computers which aren't locked to an app store. So your explanation doesn't make sense. I think the correct explanation is much simpler: These people are Apple fans, and fans will, occasionally, be irrationally loyal. Like PlayStation or Nintendo fans.

by bb123 3y ago

logicprog 3y ago

Right, but you can get the benefit of the walled garden by just... choosing to only install apps that have been vetted and verified by Apple through their app store, and not from anywhere else. These people are acting like the possibility of getting apps from elsewhere personally affects them, but if they are competent enough adults to know that it's more secure to get apps from the Apple App Store, then it won't, because they aren't forced to use other apps. And yeah maybe that isn't possible for old people or very young people because they aren't competent adults anymore, technologically speaking, but then maybe you could add a parental controls feature that locks down side loading apps or something like that. You don't need to remove the feature entirely to make everyone safe.

bb123 3y ago
I think it will be very hard to do that when the other big players move their apps off the store. They will be effectively forced to download apps like WhatsApp and Instagram from wherever Meta puts them. The net result is more hassle, more risk, and worse privacy and security for them. How is that a win?
- lnxg33k1 3y ago
  Do you think that meta will give up their presence on the official app store in order to move to a unofficial app store? Because apple will not allow apps on apple app store if they are unofficial, i have no data, but I suspect they will not
  - ensignavenger 3y ago
    Meta could have done that on Android, they have not, there is your data... it seems that as long as Apple remains a trusted and reasonable partner, Meta will continue to use Apples App Store to distribute their apps, just like they continue to use Google's Play Store today.
- eviks 3y ago
  > They remember the days of windows XP well - endless viruses, trojans and expensive security software. >They will be effectively forced to download apps like WhatsApp and Instagram from wherever Meta puts them So, what's the connect? You've started with big scary viruses and ended up with WhatsApp?
  - bb123 3y ago
    I'm looking at it from the perspective of my parents. For them it is a major feature of the iPhone that you can download any app with complete impunity. No need for $150/year antivirus (for those big scary viruses windows used to get absolutely riddled with). No need to worry it's going to change your default search engine or start mining bitcoin. You know when you download something from the App Store it has been through some level of vetting. I'm not sure why so many people here are wilfully blind to this use case. Also, the reason I specifically bring up WhatsApp is that we know Facebook will take ridiculous liberties given the chance - remember Onavo?
    - lnxg33k1 3y ago
      The thing is that apple app store is also filled with scammy apps, so the argument is flawed at the start, you can’t outsource your security and act on the internet like youre blind and doesn’t affect you, you need to be attentive
      - rvz 3y ago
        > The thing is that apple app store is also filled with scammy apps, so the argument is flawed at the start So you think to improve the security is to make the problem even worse by having more installable unchecked ransomware on the iPhone. Really can’t wait for the flood of sideloaded malware and ransomware that made Android phones the insecure toxic hellstew that it still is today; on the iPhone. /s
        smoldesu 3y ago
        I can't wait either. I've got a number of sideloaded apps on my Android phone (Netguard, KeePassDX, even a Hacker News client to name a few) and have no viruses to speak of. Closest thing to malware I can notice is the OEM software.
- dns_snek 3y ago
  Privacy and security (of other data on your phone) should be ensured through technological measures like strict sandboxing and permissions that allow sensor data to be spoofed. This is largely already the case, but any remaining gaps should be filled with technological barriers, not underpaid human reviewers prone to mistakes, favoritism, and politics.
- abhibeckert 3y ago
  If Meta does that, they will be creating their own walled garden next to the Apple one. Meta won't allow pirated software and malware to run rampant on their own store.
- Krssst 3y ago
  > when the other big players move their apps off the store. It did not happen on Android.
dylan604 3y ago
> but if they are competent enough adults and there's where the wheels fell off the bus with your argument. so many non-adults are using devices and downloading content. if their friends are using a non-Apple store and all using an app from there, they will follow. we'll see what kind of parental controls any 3rd party app store provide. teens will absolutely look for ways to skirt anything their parents are using to limit them. it's just part of being a teen.
intended 3y ago
My Grandfather had an android. When I helped him out, he had 3 different SMS apps installed. You are essentially assuming everyone has the same level of survival skills to survive the technological wilderness as yourself. Most of humanity would just end up as prey. The walled garden keeps predatory behavior out.
wayfinder 3y ago
Expecting people to know what makes an app store safe is like expecting people to know how to change their spark plugs. It’s a niche skill. The only people who are going to know are into the hobby. Your average person does not have “computers” as a hobby. In the same vein, I’m not going to give you shit that you don’t know how to change your spark plugs off your head even though it’s so basic.

glimshe 3y ago

My inlaws got scammed for 5K when a person calling, apparently from Apple, and convinced them to install an app on an iPhone that eventually got a foothold on their bank account. The same is also possible on Android, but I just wanted to say that even the iPhone can have some of these old problems.

cubefox 3y ago

> The generation of my parents (60s+) is generally not hugely tech savvy. They remember the days of windows XP well - endless viruses, trojans and expensive security software. One of the reasons iPhones are so popular with this group is they let them use the web without fear of dealing with that again. This is a strange argument, given that Windows XP is more than 20 years old, and the problem already went mostly away 20 years ago, when Service Pack 2 came out. In any case, the problem has long been a thing from the past. Moreover, I don't see anyone complaining about modern Windows or MacOS computers which aren't locked to an app store. So your explanation doesn't make sense. I think the correct explanation is much simpler: These people are Apple fans, and fans will, occasionally, be irrationally loyal. Like PlayStation or Nintendo fans.