6 ms·

Vehicular gas infrastructure is near 100 years of development and still has some edge cases. EV charging infrastructure is at about 10 years.

ceejayoz 3y ago
The good news is we haven’t forgotten all the lessons learned, many of which will be applicable.
osigurdson 3y ago
In cold climates, EVs should absolutely include a propane tank to generate passenger heat and bring the battery into its proper operating range. Generating high entropy heat with low entropy electricity from a battery offends my sensibilities.
- declan_roberts 3y ago
  As someone that drives an EV in cold weather, a propane tank for heat would be a huge improvement.
  - cwillu 3y ago
    As long as you don't want to ever make use of underground parking.
- audunw 3y ago
  Most modern EVs have heat pumps. Not using heat pumps to generate heat - exploiting the larger than 100% efficiency you get in the process - offends my sensibilities. If we have propane, and want to use it for energy/heating, it’d be better to burn it at some large central efficient generator (perhaps supplying waste heat as district heating for nearby homes), and use the electricity to power heat pumps.
  - bawolff 3y ago
    Don't heat pumps stop working around -25C? That is obviously not going to be effective in alberta. (Current temp -36C [not including windchill])
    - FredPret 3y ago
      The windchill actually only affects humans - moist skin cools down faster in the wind. But -36 is enough to bring down heat pump efficiency a lot. This site [1] talks about heat pumps that work down to -30. Not good enough to trust your life to if you’re an Albertan. [1] https://www.bchydro.com/news/conservation/2022/cold-weather-heat-pumps.html https://www.bchydro.com/news/conservation/2022/cold-weather-...
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - kevin_nisbet 3y ago
        > Not good enough to trust your life to if you’re an Albertan. I believe the heat pumps intended for these climates provided alternatives for those cold days. If you want to stay all electric, it would include a resistive electric heater, but could be paired with some other fuel source. Personally, I'd seriously consider going ground source where temperatures like this are the norm, but that doesn't work for everyone either.
        bawolff 3y ago
        That may work for your house, but it really doesn't make sense for the emergency heat source of your vehicle to also need an emergency heat source.
  - osigurdson 3y ago
    At -40C, the COP is only going to be 1.4. A natural gas fired cogen plant is 60% efficient so even without transmission losses this ultra complex arrangement is not more efficient at generating heat. You are conflating the efficiency of generating mechanical energy (where such arguments hold) with generating heat.
- bilsbie 3y ago
  It could just be a secondary battery with cold compatible chemistry with just enough energy to warm up the main battery.
  - osigurdson 3y ago
    A 20lb propane tank is a 100 kWh battery (if only generating heat).
- pxeboot 3y ago
  > In cold climates, EVs should absolutely include a propane tank to generate passenger heat I believe some EV buses are heated with propane or heating oil, so it would probably be feasible to add to personal vehicles as well.
- swader999 3y ago
  Propane freezes at about - 38.
  - Plasmoid 3y ago
    Liquefies. It's almost impossible to use at that temp though because you burn propane gas.
  - osigurdson 3y ago
    Works in propane powered cars down to -40C. https://propane.ca/for-my-business/auto-propane/#:~:text=Excellent%20cold%20start%20properties%20%E2%80%93%20auto,and%20acceleration%20to%20gasoline%20vehicles https://propane.ca/for-my-business/auto-propane/#:~:text=Exc....
- speedgoose 3y ago
  Good EVs can heat up their battery pretty fast using only electricity. I know someone who was using a diesel heater in its Mitsubishi I-miev, an old EV that had a terrible factory heating system. It did sound a lot less convenient than electric heating.
- johnwalkr 3y ago
  Absolutely? Maybe adding a propane tank, the systems to use propane to heat the passenger compartment and battery safely, the complexity refuel it, the extra mass, the extra maintenance, being banned from some underground parking... I get your sensibilities to be efficient but I think overall it's not efficient or a great idea to add propane and propane accessories to EVs.
bdcravens 3y ago
That's why I didn't get an EV until I bought my home.

ceejayoz 3y ago

The good news is we haven’t forgotten all the lessons learned, many of which will be applicable.

osigurdson 3y ago

In cold climates, EVs should absolutely include a propane tank to generate passenger heat and bring the battery into its proper operating range. Generating high entropy heat with low entropy electricity from a battery offends my sensibilities.

declan_roberts 3y ago
As someone that drives an EV in cold weather, a propane tank for heat would be a huge improvement.
- cwillu 3y ago
  As long as you don't want to ever make use of underground parking.
audunw 3y ago
Most modern EVs have heat pumps. Not using heat pumps to generate heat - exploiting the larger than 100% efficiency you get in the process - offends my sensibilities. If we have propane, and want to use it for energy/heating, it’d be better to burn it at some large central efficient generator (perhaps supplying waste heat as district heating for nearby homes), and use the electricity to power heat pumps.
- bawolff 3y ago
  Don't heat pumps stop working around -25C? That is obviously not going to be effective in alberta. (Current temp -36C [not including windchill])
  - FredPret 3y ago
    The windchill actually only affects humans - moist skin cools down faster in the wind. But -36 is enough to bring down heat pump efficiency a lot. This site [1] talks about heat pumps that work down to -30. Not good enough to trust your life to if you’re an Albertan. [1] https://www.bchydro.com/news/conservation/2022/cold-weather-heat-pumps.html https://www.bchydro.com/news/conservation/2022/cold-weather-...
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - kevin_nisbet 3y ago
      > Not good enough to trust your life to if you’re an Albertan. I believe the heat pumps intended for these climates provided alternatives for those cold days. If you want to stay all electric, it would include a resistive electric heater, but could be paired with some other fuel source. Personally, I'd seriously consider going ground source where temperatures like this are the norm, but that doesn't work for everyone either.
      - bawolff 3y ago
        That may work for your house, but it really doesn't make sense for the emergency heat source of your vehicle to also need an emergency heat source.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  At -40C, the COP is only going to be 1.4. A natural gas fired cogen plant is 60% efficient so even without transmission losses this ultra complex arrangement is not more efficient at generating heat. You are conflating the efficiency of generating mechanical energy (where such arguments hold) with generating heat.
bilsbie 3y ago
It could just be a secondary battery with cold compatible chemistry with just enough energy to warm up the main battery.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  A 20lb propane tank is a 100 kWh battery (if only generating heat).
pxeboot 3y ago
> In cold climates, EVs should absolutely include a propane tank to generate passenger heat I believe some EV buses are heated with propane or heating oil, so it would probably be feasible to add to personal vehicles as well.
swader999 3y ago
Propane freezes at about - 38.
- Plasmoid 3y ago
  Liquefies. It's almost impossible to use at that temp though because you burn propane gas.
- osigurdson 3y ago
  Works in propane powered cars down to -40C. https://propane.ca/for-my-business/auto-propane/#:~:text=Excellent%20cold%20start%20properties%20%E2%80%93%20auto,and%20acceleration%20to%20gasoline%20vehicles https://propane.ca/for-my-business/auto-propane/#:~:text=Exc....
speedgoose 3y ago
Good EVs can heat up their battery pretty fast using only electricity. I know someone who was using a diesel heater in its Mitsubishi I-miev, an old EV that had a terrible factory heating system. It did sound a lot less convenient than electric heating.
johnwalkr 3y ago
Absolutely? Maybe adding a propane tank, the systems to use propane to heat the passenger compartment and battery safely, the complexity refuel it, the extra mass, the extra maintenance, being banned from some underground parking... I get your sensibilities to be efficient but I think overall it's not efficient or a great idea to add propane and propane accessories to EVs.

bdcravens 3y ago

That's why I didn't get an EV until I bought my home.