4 ms·

That's like saying that until we can quantify how far Paris is from London, "Paris is far from London" is a pretty empty statement. Pretty sure that people unde

by Produce 14y ago

That's like saying that until we can quantify how far Paris is from London, "Paris is far from London" is a pretty empty statement. Pretty sure that people understood that locations can be some distance away from each other before they could quantify exactly how much distance.

pharrington 14y ago
Huh? If someone knows neither where Paris nor London are, then yes, saying "Paris is far from London" indeed isn't useful. Is the distance between them a two hour drive? Do they lie half-way around the world from each other? Except in pathological cases, we barely know how physiology affects large scale behavior, let alone how particular brain functions influence how one's interests develop and how they excel at activities, especially in the midst of the confounding environmental factors such as upbringing, schooling, and culture. We don't know where Paris or London are on the map.
- Produce 14y ago
  But we do know the net effects of sex on developing an interest in programming, namely that there is a negative correlation between being female and having said interest. The question is what comprises this effect and how much of it is nature as opposed to nurture. Basically, it depends on if you approach it from a hollistic perspective (where the effect of sex is the compound of physical capability and social influences and whatever else) or a narrow perspective (how does the Y chromosome influence analytical capability). In the wide perspective, the answer is clear - there are indeed differences in how males and females process their environment (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:www.psychonomic.org/pubmed/mc/mc-28-1333.pdf+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgFSyi1DnQg9j6kxkrUb6lbPKD5fvxs36ZnjD0E-1RN0UBjv02kFAMtTHn-1vhvtQf-6RLiFaDnzG_IN1-DXvluSGS1FeqiA5s1iqioqGi_Xf26V9tV2SUBLH7lcQqR6Q5jpUR_&sig=AHIEtbR147MxK545fxbBoj6r6h0RH94WYg&pli=1 https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:...). In the narrow perspective, it may never be clear for environment influences genetic expression (http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influences-on-gene-expression-536 http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influ...). In other words, it's possible that the genetics expressed in a human are themselves socially influenced. Or, for a bigger picture, an individual having a Y chromosome is treated differently by their environment which in turn results in a different genetic expression and, by extension, different preferences and capabilities. Or to put it yet another way, nature influences nuture which, in turn, influences nature. It's a feedback loop. Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence To summarise the above link, there is greater variation in adult men's intelligence and they are over-represented at the tail end as well as having a higher average intelligence. So we do indeed know where both Paris and London are at this point, we just don't know enough about geology to guess how they got there.
  - chc 14y ago
    > But we do know the net effects of sex on developing an interest in programming, namely that there is a negative correlation between being female and having said interest. Do we? That observation doesn't appear to account for the fact that the numbers are strongly correlated with culture, nor that women's presence in CS has been declining in Western countries but increasing in others. This is kind of like saying we knew the net effects of race on personal productivity by looking at Japanese internment camps during WWII — it's a very shallow and facile view of the topic.
chc 14y ago
No, it's more like saying "Paris is some distance from London." Is it a significant distance from London? "Far" is more specific than "has an effect," in that it implies the distance is significant. In this case, though, we don't even know if the effect is on the area under discussion — it might not even be relevant — much less whether its magnitude is great enough to matter.

by Produce 14y ago

pharrington 14y ago

Huh? If someone knows neither where Paris nor London are, then yes, saying "Paris is far from London" indeed isn't useful. Is the distance between them a two hour drive? Do they lie half-way around the world from each other? Except in pathological cases, we barely know how physiology affects large scale behavior, let alone how particular brain functions influence how one's interests develop and how they excel at activities, especially in the midst of the confounding environmental factors such as upbringing, schooling, and culture. We don't know where Paris or London are on the map.

Produce 14y ago
But we do know the net effects of sex on developing an interest in programming, namely that there is a negative correlation between being female and having said interest. The question is what comprises this effect and how much of it is nature as opposed to nurture. Basically, it depends on if you approach it from a hollistic perspective (where the effect of sex is the compound of physical capability and social influences and whatever else) or a narrow perspective (how does the Y chromosome influence analytical capability). In the wide perspective, the answer is clear - there are indeed differences in how males and females process their environment (https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:www.psychonomic.org/pubmed/mc/mc-28-1333.pdf+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgFSyi1DnQg9j6kxkrUb6lbPKD5fvxs36ZnjD0E-1RN0UBjv02kFAMtTHn-1vhvtQf-6RLiFaDnzG_IN1-DXvluSGS1FeqiA5s1iqioqGi_Xf26V9tV2SUBLH7lcQqR6Q5jpUR_&sig=AHIEtbR147MxK545fxbBoj6r6h0RH94WYg&pli=1 https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9JNbJB0PhGEJ:...). In the narrow perspective, it may never be clear for environment influences genetic expression (http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influences-on-gene-expression-536 http://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influ...). In other words, it's possible that the genetics expressed in a human are themselves socially influenced. Or, for a bigger picture, an individual having a Y chromosome is treated differently by their environment which in turn results in a different genetic expression and, by extension, different preferences and capabilities. Or to put it yet another way, nature influences nuture which, in turn, influences nature. It's a feedback loop. Also see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology#Intelligence To summarise the above link, there is greater variation in adult men's intelligence and they are over-represented at the tail end as well as having a higher average intelligence. So we do indeed know where both Paris and London are at this point, we just don't know enough about geology to guess how they got there.
- chc 14y ago
  > But we do know the net effects of sex on developing an interest in programming, namely that there is a negative correlation between being female and having said interest. Do we? That observation doesn't appear to account for the fact that the numbers are strongly correlated with culture, nor that women's presence in CS has been declining in Western countries but increasing in others. This is kind of like saying we knew the net effects of race on personal productivity by looking at Japanese internment camps during WWII — it's a very shallow and facile view of the topic.

chc 14y ago

No, it's more like saying "Paris is some distance from London." Is it a significant distance from London? "Far" is more specific than "has an effect," in that it implies the distance is significant. In this case, though, we don't even know if the effect is on the area under discussion — it might not even be relevant — much less whether its magnitude is great enough to matter.