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It's natural that universities will experience political accountability as they become more politically active. Education consumes a lot of resources, it's only

It's natural that universities will experience political accountability as they become more politically active. Education consumes a lot of resources, it's only natural that it's the subject of a lot of scrutiny.

chewmieser 3y ago
Why do you think universities are more politically active? They have always been a safe-haven for ideas that go against the fray. I would argue they have always been "politically active."
- telotortium 3y ago
  When the administration of the University is making political statements and engaging in political activism, I would argue that they should lose the implicit protection that University faculty (I'd be willing to grant students that protection too) have for controversial ideas that they profess in the role of an academic. Even professors or students that take administrative roles should expect to lose such protection, since they have come to represent the university as an institution.† For an example from the other side of the aisle, I opposed Steve Hsu being fired as VP of Research at Michigan State University in 2020 for his opinions, particularly regarding the genetics of race and intelligence (https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/06/16/open-thread-156-25/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/06/16/open-thread-156-25/). Yet, ultimately, that was the risk of an administrative position such as his. He still is a full professor, and he has started several startups since then, so he's doing okay. The main objection I have to positions like yours is that you believe that university administration should not be subject to pressure from politicians who grant universities the great privilege of being untaxed nonprofits with immense endowments and great influence in all the pillars of society. On the other hand, you believe that administrators should be subject to influence and control by left-wing student and academic protestors (I'm sure you think right-wing protestors would be illegitimate). I'm arguing that pressure on administration from both sides is legitimate, and that the former should flex its muscle more. † I would also argue that academic fields that adopt activism as policy (so, all critical theory-influenced fields) should lose protection for their ideas, since they are clearly not pursued in a commitment to the truth, but that's a bit of an aside from my point here.
  - thebradbain 3y ago
    You’re advocating placing limits on free speech of those best situated to speak truth to power — this is straight out of the fascist playbook. Go after the Churches and religious organizations first, in that case, as they’re also tax advantaged and their leaders and congregations have a profound pull upon politics and politicians.
    - snapcaster 3y ago
      I liked the discussion you both had. I think heavy scrutiny should be applied to any institution with that much power. Universities, churches, etc. all seem like valid targets
      - bradchris 3y ago
        Funny enough, I actually think it’s a bad idea to go after either: both of those institutions, ultimately, are checks on the State — and historically, when a state turns to fascism, universities and religious organizations (save the “favored/officially sanctioned religion”) are the first thing to go. I think the State should stay out of religion’s business entirely (that also means no “religious freedom” exemptions to treat others like second-class citizens that the evangelical right has been winning recently), along with universities too. Leave both organizations tax-exempt, but they should not receive any public funds for any reason, nor get any other special protections from the government, lest there’s an explicit agreement to pay it back in the form of bonds or loans. Publicly-funded research at private institutions could remain the same as it is, with the caveat that results by-default should be public to all, rather than locked behind institutional paywalls. (State universities are a valid edge case, but I’m specifically talking about private non-government organizations here)
        snapcaster 3y ago
        Good point, I think if we look at quadrant of "Receives public finds" and "pays taxes" I'm fine with either "no funds, no taxes" or "taxes, and funds" sections
- throwaway-blaze 3y ago
  Today they are safe-havens only for ideas that fall on one side of the political divide in the US.
  - enterprise_cog 3y ago
    What are the ideas of the other side you feel are not allowed?
    - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
      "Israel has a right to exist and defend itself" is allowed but will certainly get you subjected to both overt and under-the-table harassment. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/queering-antisemitism https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/queering-an...
      - enterprise_cog 3y ago
        [flagged]
        porkbeer 3y ago
        Not sure why your comment is fading, I have seen this firsthand. Maybe this is another example.
        eli_gottlieb 3y ago
        > Opposing Zionism or what Israel is doing will get you doxxed, expelled, and blacklisted. Can you provide three examples in which no other infraction, violation, or crime was committed except for opposing Zionism?
        runarberg 3y ago
        - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz%E2%80%93Finkelstein_affair#Dershowitz's_involvement_in_Finkelstein's_denial_of_tenure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz%E2%80%93Finkelstein... - https://www.jta.org/2022/01/26/ny/a-jewish-educator-sues-a-new-york-area-synagogue-saying-she-was-fired-for-espousing-anti-zionist-beliefs https://www.jta.org/2022/01/26/ny/a-jewish-educator-sues-a-n... - https://www.inquirer.com/news/teacher-fired-jack-barrack-academy-zionism-20210603.html https://www.inquirer.com/news/teacher-fired-jack-barrack-aca... The first case is not a clean one. The charges were correctly accusing a pro-israeli hack for being a hack.
- eli_gottlieb 3y ago
  > They have always been a safe-haven for ideas that go against the fray. Every academic knows that you have to "play ball" to get to tenure, and that's regarding the direct subject matter of your own scholarship. Electoral endorsements are practically the only form of outspokenness that cannot and will not be used against you, only because the courts would come down too hard on the institution. Everything else is office politics!
- infamia 3y ago
  I think the difference between now and back then is that now the top administration of the universities have become politically more active. Before it was mostly students and faculty, which makes sense. edit: I would also note that the such actions by top administration imperils and has a chilling effect for faculty and student's contrarian thoughts and free speech. You you're not as likely to speak out against your boss/principal's ideas.

chewmieser 3y ago

Why do you think universities are more politically active? They have always been a safe-haven for ideas that go against the fray. I would argue they have always been "politically active."

telotortium 3y ago
When the administration of the University is making political statements and engaging in political activism, I would argue that they should lose the implicit protection that University faculty (I'd be willing to grant students that protection too) have for controversial ideas that they profess in the role of an academic. Even professors or students that take administrative roles should expect to lose such protection, since they have come to represent the university as an institution.† For an example from the other side of the aisle, I opposed Steve Hsu being fired as VP of Research at Michigan State University in 2020 for his opinions, particularly regarding the genetics of race and intelligence (https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/06/16/open-thread-156-25/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2020/06/16/open-thread-156-25/). Yet, ultimately, that was the risk of an administrative position such as his. He still is a full professor, and he has started several startups since then, so he's doing okay. The main objection I have to positions like yours is that you believe that university administration should not be subject to pressure from politicians who grant universities the great privilege of being untaxed nonprofits with immense endowments and great influence in all the pillars of society. On the other hand, you believe that administrators should be subject to influence and control by left-wing student and academic protestors (I'm sure you think right-wing protestors would be illegitimate). I'm arguing that pressure on administration from both sides is legitimate, and that the former should flex its muscle more. † I would also argue that academic fields that adopt activism as policy (so, all critical theory-influenced fields) should lose protection for their ideas, since they are clearly not pursued in a commitment to the truth, but that's a bit of an aside from my point here.
- thebradbain 3y ago
  You’re advocating placing limits on free speech of those best situated to speak truth to power — this is straight out of the fascist playbook. Go after the Churches and religious organizations first, in that case, as they’re also tax advantaged and their leaders and congregations have a profound pull upon politics and politicians.
  - snapcaster 3y ago
    I liked the discussion you both had. I think heavy scrutiny should be applied to any institution with that much power. Universities, churches, etc. all seem like valid targets
    - bradchris 3y ago
      Funny enough, I actually think it’s a bad idea to go after either: both of those institutions, ultimately, are checks on the State — and historically, when a state turns to fascism, universities and religious organizations (save the “favored/officially sanctioned religion”) are the first thing to go. I think the State should stay out of religion’s business entirely (that also means no “religious freedom” exemptions to treat others like second-class citizens that the evangelical right has been winning recently), along with universities too. Leave both organizations tax-exempt, but they should not receive any public funds for any reason, nor get any other special protections from the government, lest there’s an explicit agreement to pay it back in the form of bonds or loans. Publicly-funded research at private institutions could remain the same as it is, with the caveat that results by-default should be public to all, rather than locked behind institutional paywalls. (State universities are a valid edge case, but I’m specifically talking about private non-government organizations here)
      - snapcaster 3y ago
        Good point, I think if we look at quadrant of "Receives public finds" and "pays taxes" I'm fine with either "no funds, no taxes" or "taxes, and funds" sections
throwaway-blaze 3y ago
Today they are safe-havens only for ideas that fall on one side of the political divide in the US.
- enterprise_cog 3y ago
  What are the ideas of the other side you feel are not allowed?
  - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
    "Israel has a right to exist and defend itself" is allowed but will certainly get you subjected to both overt and under-the-table harassment. https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/queering-antisemitism https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/queering-an...
    - enterprise_cog 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - porkbeer 3y ago
        Not sure why your comment is fading, I have seen this firsthand. Maybe this is another example.
      - eli_gottlieb 3y ago
        > Opposing Zionism or what Israel is doing will get you doxxed, expelled, and blacklisted. Can you provide three examples in which no other infraction, violation, or crime was committed except for opposing Zionism?
        runarberg 3y ago
        - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz%E2%80%93Finkelstein_affair#Dershowitz's_involvement_in_Finkelstein's_denial_of_tenure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dershowitz%E2%80%93Finkelstein... - https://www.jta.org/2022/01/26/ny/a-jewish-educator-sues-a-new-york-area-synagogue-saying-she-was-fired-for-espousing-anti-zionist-beliefs https://www.jta.org/2022/01/26/ny/a-jewish-educator-sues-a-n... - https://www.inquirer.com/news/teacher-fired-jack-barrack-academy-zionism-20210603.html https://www.inquirer.com/news/teacher-fired-jack-barrack-aca... The first case is not a clean one. The charges were correctly accusing a pro-israeli hack for being a hack.
eli_gottlieb 3y ago
> They have always been a safe-haven for ideas that go against the fray. Every academic knows that you have to "play ball" to get to tenure, and that's regarding the direct subject matter of your own scholarship. Electoral endorsements are practically the only form of outspokenness that cannot and will not be used against you, only because the courts would come down too hard on the institution. Everything else is office politics!
infamia 3y ago
I think the difference between now and back then is that now the top administration of the universities have become politically more active. Before it was mostly students and faculty, which makes sense. edit: I would also note that the such actions by top administration imperils and has a chilling effect for faculty and student's contrarian thoughts and free speech. You you're not as likely to speak out against your boss/principal's ideas.