7 ms·

> Of note: if a customer orders a copy from Amazon, and a damaged, returned book is shipped to them instead, no new KDP printing orders kick in. This means I do

by lepus 3y ago

> Of note: if a customer orders a copy from Amazon, and a damaged, returned book is shipped to them instead, no new KDP printing orders kick in. This means I don’t get paid at all, because they only pay me when a book is printed.

gumby 3y ago
That statement jumped out at me too, but I'm not sure what to think about it. I also hate to say anything that might seem sympathetic to Amazon, a company I consider somewhat unethical. These two statements below should be uncontroversial: 1. If Amazon prints a defective book and rejects it in QC then Amazon should get no revenue nor should the author. It should be recycled. Another copy should be printed and shipped and the revenue distributed as normal. 2. If Amazon prints a defective book and it is shipped returned due to defect then amazon should get no revenue nor should the author. It should be recycled. A new book should be printed and sent to the customer (assuming they didn't ask for a refund) and no payment to author / no extra revenue recognition to Amazon. But then: 3. It's better that Amazon resells products that are returned in perfectly good condition rather than trashing them (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/28/amazon-returns-what-really-happens-to-them.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/28/amazon-returns-what-really-h... https://www.howtogeek.com/what-happens-to-amazon-returns/ https://www.howtogeek.com/what-happens-to-amazon-returns/ and a ton of other easy to find links) 4. Amazon should not resell products returned that are defective. The problem is: how should it know? They can't take the word of the customer returning the product. Amazon does resell high value returned items like TVs and monitors after checking them. But the cost of looking for the defect in the book is quite high -- I'd be surprised if it gets more than a casual glance/flip through. I'm not sure what they should be doing in this case, but I do think the comment "This means I don’t get paid at all, because they only pay me when a book is printed" is a side distraction.
- washadjeffmad 3y ago
  The contention, to me, is if returned or refurbished items are being labeled and sold as 'new', then Amazon may be running afoul of FTC truth-in-advertising laws.
  - sparky_z 3y ago
    If I go into a physical bookstore, buy a book, walk out with it, walk back in and return it still in good condition, should they not just put it back on the shelf? Would that be fraud? It's technically no longer "new" at that point. True this was returned as "damaged" but how damaged was it? We aren't told and there are no photos.
    - JCharante 3y ago
      Well does the bookstore label it as new? If it's on the shelf with just a barcode I imagine it's sold as is without promising that it's new
    - washadjeffmad 3y ago
      The condition doesn't matter, either because of one of two scenarios. 1) This is the author, and these are rejected proofs or author copies. In which case, Amazon does not have the rights to sell them because they were not "returns". 2) This book has been sold once, and royalties have been paid, but it was returned, relabeled as "new" and sold again without a royalty being paid on that sale. The author and the customer have been cheated. The thread has likely developed, but this is just going by my limited familiarity with publishing.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Amazon "checks" them hardly at all. I ordered a warehouse item (and I recognize this risk) for a Chicco stroller holder and received a Chicco box with a broken Gracco stroller in it. That's not very checked. And there's not much I can do but return it (they don't even have a "you got scammed, idiots" option to tell them to check again).
  - scrapcode 3y ago
    My luck they would check it upon return and pin me for some kind of fraud.
- Dylan16807 3y ago
  Whether the author gets paid is a very important issue too. The math is simple. Books sent to customers minus books returned from customers equals royalties paid. And apparently that's not happening here.
- liendolucas 3y ago
  Amazon shouldn't be in the business of printing books in first place, they are really bad at it. I recently received a copy printed by them (of an MIT press book), very low quality, similar as printed by a copy centre. Anyone on solid online book stores in Europe?

by lepus 3y ago

gumby 3y ago

That statement jumped out at me too, but I'm not sure what to think about it. I also hate to say anything that might seem sympathetic to Amazon, a company I consider somewhat unethical. These two statements below should be uncontroversial: 1. If Amazon prints a defective book and rejects it in QC then Amazon should get no revenue nor should the author. It should be recycled. Another copy should be printed and shipped and the revenue distributed as normal. 2. If Amazon prints a defective book and it is shipped returned due to defect then amazon should get no revenue nor should the author. It should be recycled. A new book should be printed and sent to the customer (assuming they didn't ask for a refund) and no payment to author / no extra revenue recognition to Amazon. But then: 3. It's better that Amazon resells products that are returned in perfectly good condition rather than trashing them (https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/28/amazon-returns-what-really-happens-to-them.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/01/28/amazon-returns-what-really-h... https://www.howtogeek.com/what-happens-to-amazon-returns/ https://www.howtogeek.com/what-happens-to-amazon-returns/ and a ton of other easy to find links) 4. Amazon should not resell products returned that are defective. The problem is: how should it know? They can't take the word of the customer returning the product. Amazon does resell high value returned items like TVs and monitors after checking them. But the cost of looking for the defect in the book is quite high -- I'd be surprised if it gets more than a casual glance/flip through. I'm not sure what they should be doing in this case, but I do think the comment "This means I don’t get paid at all, because they only pay me when a book is printed" is a side distraction.

washadjeffmad 3y ago
The contention, to me, is if returned or refurbished items are being labeled and sold as 'new', then Amazon may be running afoul of FTC truth-in-advertising laws.
- sparky_z 3y ago
  If I go into a physical bookstore, buy a book, walk out with it, walk back in and return it still in good condition, should they not just put it back on the shelf? Would that be fraud? It's technically no longer "new" at that point. True this was returned as "damaged" but how damaged was it? We aren't told and there are no photos.
  - JCharante 3y ago
    Well does the bookstore label it as new? If it's on the shelf with just a barcode I imagine it's sold as is without promising that it's new
  - washadjeffmad 3y ago
    The condition doesn't matter, either because of one of two scenarios. 1) This is the author, and these are rejected proofs or author copies. In which case, Amazon does not have the rights to sell them because they were not "returns". 2) This book has been sold once, and royalties have been paid, but it was returned, relabeled as "new" and sold again without a royalty being paid on that sale. The author and the customer have been cheated. The thread has likely developed, but this is just going by my limited familiarity with publishing.
bombcar 3y ago
Amazon "checks" them hardly at all. I ordered a warehouse item (and I recognize this risk) for a Chicco stroller holder and received a Chicco box with a broken Gracco stroller in it. That's not very checked. And there's not much I can do but return it (they don't even have a "you got scammed, idiots" option to tell them to check again).
- scrapcode 3y ago
  My luck they would check it upon return and pin me for some kind of fraud.
Dylan16807 3y ago
Whether the author gets paid is a very important issue too. The math is simple. Books sent to customers minus books returned from customers equals royalties paid. And apparently that's not happening here.
liendolucas 3y ago
Amazon shouldn't be in the business of printing books in first place, they are really bad at it. I recently received a copy printed by them (of an MIT press book), very low quality, similar as printed by a copy centre. Anyone on solid online book stores in Europe?