7 ms·

Is speaking to someone formally considered ending up in an inferior position in all cultures? In Persian if someone expects to be spoken with formally, they ha

Is speaking to someone formally considered ending up in an inferior position in all cultures? In Persian if someone expects to be spoken with formally, they have to speak formally themselves. So when you speak formally you're kinda bringing both parties up. You can even flirt by speaking formally.

abtinf 3y ago
Formal Farsi borders on being its own dialect. I grew up only learning informal "street" Farsi, and find formal Farsi to be almost impenetrable (granted I've never tried to learn it).
api 3y ago
That actually sounds really cool.
blowski 3y ago
How does the “flirting by speaking formally” work? “I say, does Madam visit this establishment frequently”.
- coldtea 3y ago
  Yes, but imagine it not sounding funny like in the English case, because it's a normal feature of the language/culture...
  - blowski 3y ago
    Is it because of cultural expectations in how men and women should address each other? Does the formal language get used for properly formal situations as well? Is there a whole set of specific terms for this? Sorry for all the questions. I just found it fascinating.
    - coldtea 3y ago
      Not sure about the specifics for Iran in particular (the grandparent can answer), I've just heard about that from some friends hailing from there. But I could relate it, as it was a "chic" thing to do in my parts too back in the day (until around the 1970s), for upper class folks (using the polite forms of address, and so on). A good analogy in English terms might be the flirting with all the speaking formalities in period movies live "Room with a view" or "Pride and Prejudice".
      - throwaway2037 3y ago
        FYI: Large parts of Afghanistan and Tajikistan also speak Persian. I was surprised to learn this recently.
        fsckboy 3y ago
        fwiw, it's not so much that Persian is spoken in Tajikistan, it's that the Tajiks are a Persian people (as opposed to, in that part of the world, Turkic, Mongolic, or Hindi (Hindi and Urdu are the same languages, and Hindi and Persian are in the same broad language family, Indo-Iranian)
- pySSK 3y ago
  It’s a nice gesture kinda like holding the door open for you date.
- FromTheSteppe 3y ago
  Different cultures. Persian has 1100 years of literature and recent media for this. On the other hand you can't dirty talk with a straight face in Persian, since nobody has ever heard or read about it, it sounds super funny.
  - pbhjpbhj 3y ago
    I admit I know barely anything about the subject (but I took an interest in Burton as a younger man): is The Perfumed Garden not "dirty", ie erotic literature? I recall the One-Thousand-and-One Nights being quite bawdy (talking about lusting after well-endowed servants, IIRC); maybe that's not authentic Persian literature though? Maybe I misunderstood "nobody has ever read or heard about it"? Can you help me better understand your comment, thanks.
    - FromTheSteppe 3y ago
      The current 1001 nights is Arabic and the Middle Persian one is lost. Nevertheless, it is a pre-islamic literature. Perfumed Garden is Arabic and has just been recently translated into Persian. New Persian literature starts around Rudaki (9th century). Since Islam made sex and showing affection taboo, the tiny fraction of explicit erotica are not studied/known by the general public. Because of the taboo, majority of Persians have not ever heard their parents speak affectionately. And when we study affectionate literature in school the teachers tell us it's about the love for God, and the exams will question us about such love.
- rzzzt 3y ago
  M'lady
- grishka 3y ago
  In Russian you can sometimes jokingly call someone like a friend or a partner "вы" + their first and middle (father's) name. It makes you sound kinda important.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  Voulez-vous couchez avec moi ?
timeagain 3y ago
Well inferior might be overly simplistic. In many cultures you use formal speech with strangers as well.
andrepd 3y ago
The Wikipedia article linked lists several types of T-V distinctions. Some are based on age, others on age difference, social status, and many more subtle factors. They also change very quickly: my parents speak to their parents with V but I do with T.
Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago
In Spanish asymmetric conversations have always been a thing, e.g. student-teacher, patient-doctor or younger-older conversations where the former side uses V and the latter T. The V is gradually being dropped in Spain and in the last few decades the process seems to have accelerated, though, definitely it seems faster than in French (although I don't know that much about French). I don't think my 4-year-old son will have much use for the V in his life. And like your parent comment, I also think that's probably for the best in our case, although it does sound like it's probably different in Persian.
- shaky-carrousel 3y ago
  I always start formal (except with kids), and if the other part switches to informal, then I switch too.
  - calvinmorrison 3y ago
    Growing up in the south it was all yes sir no sir yes ma'am no ma'am
    - devilbunny 3y ago
      And in many ways still is, especially for kids, but Southern English also has mechanisms for expressing familiarity and respect at the same time - it was in no way unusual for us to call friends' parents by their first name, provided we prefixed it with "Mr/Miss" (always Miss, for some reason, even if an obviously married woman).
      - ramses0 3y ago
        It's considered "polite" to imply that the woman in question is obviously still an unmarried hottie, which is why you always "err on the side of Miss", rather than "mistake on the side of Mrs."
        devilbunny 3y ago
elboru 3y ago
Not in mine. But you surely build a barrier of “respect”, I learned that early in my career. I was too formal and “too respectful”, that built a barrier with many people, a barrier other teammates didn’t have. That barrier can be useful though, but you need to be aware of it.
yongjik 3y ago
In Korean there are four commonly used forms, which map into the combination of (formal vs informal) x (polite vs not-so-polite). (That's a simple picture and the reality is a lot messier... but let's not get into that.) E.g., Formal polite: military, business email, public announcement Formal non-polite: textbooks, novels Informal polite: kids' books, between coworkers, between customer and clerk Informal non-polite: siblings, childhood friends, mom to kids
- BalinKing 3y ago
  This sounds very similar to my (very amateur) understanding of how Japanese works as well.

abtinf 3y ago

Formal Farsi borders on being its own dialect. I grew up only learning informal "street" Farsi, and find formal Farsi to be almost impenetrable (granted I've never tried to learn it).

api 3y ago

That actually sounds really cool.

blowski 3y ago

How does the “flirting by speaking formally” work? “I say, does Madam visit this establishment frequently”.

coldtea 3y ago
Yes, but imagine it not sounding funny like in the English case, because it's a normal feature of the language/culture...
- blowski 3y ago
  Is it because of cultural expectations in how men and women should address each other? Does the formal language get used for properly formal situations as well? Is there a whole set of specific terms for this? Sorry for all the questions. I just found it fascinating.
  - coldtea 3y ago
    Not sure about the specifics for Iran in particular (the grandparent can answer), I've just heard about that from some friends hailing from there. But I could relate it, as it was a "chic" thing to do in my parts too back in the day (until around the 1970s), for upper class folks (using the polite forms of address, and so on). A good analogy in English terms might be the flirting with all the speaking formalities in period movies live "Room with a view" or "Pride and Prejudice".
    - throwaway2037 3y ago
      FYI: Large parts of Afghanistan and Tajikistan also speak Persian. I was surprised to learn this recently.
      - fsckboy 3y ago
        fwiw, it's not so much that Persian is spoken in Tajikistan, it's that the Tajiks are a Persian people (as opposed to, in that part of the world, Turkic, Mongolic, or Hindi (Hindi and Urdu are the same languages, and Hindi and Persian are in the same broad language family, Indo-Iranian)
pySSK 3y ago
It’s a nice gesture kinda like holding the door open for you date.
FromTheSteppe 3y ago
Different cultures. Persian has 1100 years of literature and recent media for this. On the other hand you can't dirty talk with a straight face in Persian, since nobody has ever heard or read about it, it sounds super funny.
- pbhjpbhj 3y ago
  I admit I know barely anything about the subject (but I took an interest in Burton as a younger man): is The Perfumed Garden not "dirty", ie erotic literature? I recall the One-Thousand-and-One Nights being quite bawdy (talking about lusting after well-endowed servants, IIRC); maybe that's not authentic Persian literature though? Maybe I misunderstood "nobody has ever read or heard about it"? Can you help me better understand your comment, thanks.
  - FromTheSteppe 3y ago
    The current 1001 nights is Arabic and the Middle Persian one is lost. Nevertheless, it is a pre-islamic literature. Perfumed Garden is Arabic and has just been recently translated into Persian. New Persian literature starts around Rudaki (9th century). Since Islam made sex and showing affection taboo, the tiny fraction of explicit erotica are not studied/known by the general public. Because of the taboo, majority of Persians have not ever heard their parents speak affectionately. And when we study affectionate literature in school the teachers tell us it's about the love for God, and the exams will question us about such love.
rzzzt 3y ago
M'lady
grishka 3y ago
In Russian you can sometimes jokingly call someone like a friend or a partner "вы" + their first and middle (father's) name. It makes you sound kinda important.
globular-toast 3y ago
Voulez-vous couchez avec moi ?

timeagain 3y ago

Well inferior might be overly simplistic. In many cultures you use formal speech with strangers as well.

andrepd 3y ago

The Wikipedia article linked lists several types of T-V distinctions. Some are based on age, others on age difference, social status, and many more subtle factors. They also change very quickly: my parents speak to their parents with V but I do with T.

Al-Khwarizmi 3y ago

In Spanish asymmetric conversations have always been a thing, e.g. student-teacher, patient-doctor or younger-older conversations where the former side uses V and the latter T. The V is gradually being dropped in Spain and in the last few decades the process seems to have accelerated, though, definitely it seems faster than in French (although I don't know that much about French). I don't think my 4-year-old son will have much use for the V in his life. And like your parent comment, I also think that's probably for the best in our case, although it does sound like it's probably different in Persian.

shaky-carrousel 3y ago
I always start formal (except with kids), and if the other part switches to informal, then I switch too.
- calvinmorrison 3y ago
  Growing up in the south it was all yes sir no sir yes ma'am no ma'am
  - devilbunny 3y ago
    And in many ways still is, especially for kids, but Southern English also has mechanisms for expressing familiarity and respect at the same time - it was in no way unusual for us to call friends' parents by their first name, provided we prefixed it with "Mr/Miss" (always Miss, for some reason, even if an obviously married woman).
    - ramses0 3y ago
      It's considered "polite" to imply that the woman in question is obviously still an unmarried hottie, which is why you always "err on the side of Miss", rather than "mistake on the side of Mrs."
      - devilbunny 3y ago

elboru 3y ago

Not in mine. But you surely build a barrier of “respect”, I learned that early in my career. I was too formal and “too respectful”, that built a barrier with many people, a barrier other teammates didn’t have. That barrier can be useful though, but you need to be aware of it.

yongjik 3y ago

In Korean there are four commonly used forms, which map into the combination of (formal vs informal) x (polite vs not-so-polite). (That's a simple picture and the reality is a lot messier... but let's not get into that.) E.g., Formal polite: military, business email, public announcement Formal non-polite: textbooks, novels Informal polite: kids' books, between coworkers, between customer and clerk Informal non-polite: siblings, childhood friends, mom to kids

BalinKing 3y ago
This sounds very similar to my (very amateur) understanding of how Japanese works as well.