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"X can seem sensible and logical if you ignore sense and logic and believe your emotions instead". Yes, that's true for everything, and it is exactly what beli

"X can seem sensible and logical if you ignore sense and logic and believe your emotions instead". Yes, that's true for everything, and it is exactly what believing your emotions over facts means.

lewhoo 3y ago
But that's just ad absurdum considering we don't have straight answers when it comes to socio-political issues.
- ryanklee 3y ago
  It's absolutely straightforward to uphold Democratic principles over Fascistic enterprises. People who get this wrong are simply wrong, and it's likely emotional and psychological forces that got them there, not rational, historiographic, or empirical ones. The current headwinds are a result of ill-equiped individuals being manipulated by other ill-equiped individuals.
  - lewhoo 3y ago
    > It's absolutely straightforward to uphold Democratic principles over Fascistic enterprises. That may be, but it also seems perfectly logical to claim democracy is broken because a voice of an educated person carries same weight than that of a high school dropout. All you need to do is extend this logic a bit. I think it is because of our emotions, empathy or maybe something else that we see that this "flaw" in democracy isn't really a flaw. > ill-equiped individuals being manipulated by other ill-equiped individuals Except fascism wasn't only a manipulation. Had fascism succeeded it would've made the participating states extremely rich, powerful and influential throughout the next (maybe) hundreds of years.
    - throwaway171223 3y ago
      > to claim democracy is broken because a voice of an educated person carries same weight than that of a high school dropout Is not logical. > fascism wasn't only a manipulation No successful ideology is only a manipulation. > Had fascism succeeded I doubt anyone really knows why, but the historical fact is that it didn't.
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        >Is not logical. How so? >No successful ideology is only a manipulation. Depends on how you define success. We can say "fascism didn't succeed" but it certainly didn't blow over as a trend. Not back then, and not now.
        throwaway171223 3y ago
        As a common meeting ground between Hobbes and Rousseau (and probably Locke, which I confess I have not read), anyone can hold and fire a gun. Considering the original context in whence Greek democracy flourished, I'd say that's a fair extrapolation to modern times.
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        > Considering the original context in whence Greek democracy flourished, I'd say that's a fair extrapolation to modern times. I don't think so. Even "democracy" in the lens of 18th is century America is rife with various prejudice that shouldn't existing in a pure democracy. I wouldn't extrapolate anything accurately from millenia ago if it degregates in a matter of a few centuries. It's very easy to protest "equal vote for each person" when the ruling body gets to define "person" (or more accurately, "citizen") in their own emotion way
    - vpribish 3y ago
      I appreciate your contribution to the conversation, but have to disagree : "Had fascism succeeded" is kinda of an impossibility. it's bad at doing things and internally eats itself as soon as it gets power. Fascism is not just <Alternative Government Style> as if it was a choice of haircut, it's cancer
      - lewhoo 3y ago
        > "Had fascism succeeded" is kinda of an impossibility. Depends. If you assume succeeded indefinitely then this is a trap because such a thing is impossible (can only be deemed indefinitely successful at its end at which point it cant). Fascism could've been the new feudal era with the masters and slaves clearly defined but yes, I don't think it could've lasted forever if that's what you're saying.
      - willsoon 3y ago
        It's true. Fascism is something to die for... Not something to live for.
  - bawolff 3y ago
    This strikes me as begging the question. It is always straightforward to uphold what you already believe in. Like isnt it the famous line of the communists that communism is a historical neccesisty? I think all ideologies have something similar.
- throwaway171223 3y ago
  We do though, We've had them since the first time a group of farming monkeys decided to post day/night guards on the granary. Those posts have been filled around the clock ever since. To my knowledge the first ones to formalize this were Locke, Hobbes and Rousseau but, in all cases, very little has changed since. To me, that's as straight an answer as you're ever going to get
  - mordae 3y ago
    Since then a single farmer feeds thousands of people. We are producing more and with much less effort than we did before we have started farming and had to post the guards. Yet the guards remain and insist that they are still needed.
    - throwaway171223 3y ago
      By my understanding, the definition of granary has changed since.

"X can seem sensible and logical if you ignore sense and logic and believe your emotions instead". Yes, that's true for everything, and it is exactly what believing your emotions over facts means.

lewhoo 3y ago

But that's just ad absurdum considering we don't have straight answers when it comes to socio-political issues.

ryanklee 3y ago
It's absolutely straightforward to uphold Democratic principles over Fascistic enterprises. People who get this wrong are simply wrong, and it's likely emotional and psychological forces that got them there, not rational, historiographic, or empirical ones. The current headwinds are a result of ill-equiped individuals being manipulated by other ill-equiped individuals.
- lewhoo 3y ago
  > It's absolutely straightforward to uphold Democratic principles over Fascistic enterprises. That may be, but it also seems perfectly logical to claim democracy is broken because a voice of an educated person carries same weight than that of a high school dropout. All you need to do is extend this logic a bit. I think it is because of our emotions, empathy or maybe something else that we see that this "flaw" in democracy isn't really a flaw. > ill-equiped individuals being manipulated by other ill-equiped individuals Except fascism wasn't only a manipulation. Had fascism succeeded it would've made the participating states extremely rich, powerful and influential throughout the next (maybe) hundreds of years.
  - throwaway171223 3y ago
    > to claim democracy is broken because a voice of an educated person carries same weight than that of a high school dropout Is not logical. > fascism wasn't only a manipulation No successful ideology is only a manipulation. > Had fascism succeeded I doubt anyone really knows why, but the historical fact is that it didn't.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      >Is not logical. How so? >No successful ideology is only a manipulation. Depends on how you define success. We can say "fascism didn't succeed" but it certainly didn't blow over as a trend. Not back then, and not now.
      - throwaway171223 3y ago
        As a common meeting ground between Hobbes and Rousseau (and probably Locke, which I confess I have not read), anyone can hold and fire a gun. Considering the original context in whence Greek democracy flourished, I'd say that's a fair extrapolation to modern times.
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        > Considering the original context in whence Greek democracy flourished, I'd say that's a fair extrapolation to modern times. I don't think so. Even "democracy" in the lens of 18th is century America is rife with various prejudice that shouldn't existing in a pure democracy. I wouldn't extrapolate anything accurately from millenia ago if it degregates in a matter of a few centuries. It's very easy to protest "equal vote for each person" when the ruling body gets to define "person" (or more accurately, "citizen") in their own emotion way
  - vpribish 3y ago
    I appreciate your contribution to the conversation, but have to disagree : "Had fascism succeeded" is kinda of an impossibility. it's bad at doing things and internally eats itself as soon as it gets power. Fascism is not just <Alternative Government Style> as if it was a choice of haircut, it's cancer
    - lewhoo 3y ago
      > "Had fascism succeeded" is kinda of an impossibility. Depends. If you assume succeeded indefinitely then this is a trap because such a thing is impossible (can only be deemed indefinitely successful at its end at which point it cant). Fascism could've been the new feudal era with the masters and slaves clearly defined but yes, I don't think it could've lasted forever if that's what you're saying.
    - willsoon 3y ago
      It's true. Fascism is something to die for... Not something to live for.
- bawolff 3y ago
  This strikes me as begging the question. It is always straightforward to uphold what you already believe in. Like isnt it the famous line of the communists that communism is a historical neccesisty? I think all ideologies have something similar.
throwaway171223 3y ago
We do though, We've had them since the first time a group of farming monkeys decided to post day/night guards on the granary. Those posts have been filled around the clock ever since. To my knowledge the first ones to formalize this were Locke, Hobbes and Rousseau but, in all cases, very little has changed since. To me, that's as straight an answer as you're ever going to get
- mordae 3y ago
  Since then a single farmer feeds thousands of people. We are producing more and with much less effort than we did before we have started farming and had to post the guards. Yet the guards remain and insist that they are still needed.
  - throwaway171223 3y ago
    By my understanding, the definition of granary has changed since.