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Thats the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. They want to control the entire user experience end to end, and it is why many people like Apple products so much

Thats the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. They want to control the entire user experience end to end, and it is why many people like Apple products so much.

hamandcheese 3y ago
> Thats the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. They want to control the entire user experience end to end I don't doubt that. > and it is why many people like Apple products so much. No. People like the quality and the refinement and polish. In most cases those things to not require (as much of) a closed ecosystem. Beeper is proof of that.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  The quality and refinement comes from the control. They don’t ever have to support a device they didn’t make themselves.
  - skeaker 3y ago
    I have seen this argument so many times and it has never made sense to me. There is so much quality software that is free and open and interoperable. It is more than possible to be both open in nature and of high quality, to me that is indisputable. Apple obviously has a financial incentive to be locked down, they're not locked down out of any sort of necessity or as a concession for the sake of quality. In the case of Beeper Mini, the proof is in the pudding. You have evidence right in front of your face that an Android client for iMessage is possible, because one now exists. Does your iPhone suddenly feel lower quality to you?
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      > You have evidence right in front of your face that an Android client for iMessage is possible, because one now exists. Sure, but I'm not the one who has to handle customer service for it. Apple can have a test suite that encompasses every possible supported device (and OS combination). That's much tougher if they want to support Android. > Does your iPhone suddenly feel lower quality to you? No, but that's missing the point. If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it.
      - Nextgrid 3y ago
        > some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it. Then you can blame their phone... just like you would now if your SMS messages to them were getting lost.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        If the iMessages fail, and give me the "try as SMS instead", I'm likely to blame iMessage.
      - freedomben 3y ago
        > If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it. You realize that's been Apple's fault right, intentionally breaking Beeper?
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        > You realize that's been Apple's fault right, intentionally breaking Beeper? Sure, it's impossible that Beeper's app or services could ever just malfunction on their own. The first bug-free app!
        freedomben 3y ago
        Oops, meant this to be a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38603599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38603599
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        Same answer either way; Beeper could break things in a way that results in delivery failures, and Apple could be blamed.
      - skeaker 3y ago
        Apple doesn't need to provide support for Android if they simply open their protocol and let whoever develops the Android client take care of that, as evidenced by Beeper Mini. > If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it. In that case, you might be shocked to learn that before Beeper Mini you simply couldn't send iMessages to Android devices at all. Imagine that, ALL of your iMessages to them getting dropped and having to go through SMS instead...
  - hamandcheese 3y ago
    Counterpoint: AirPods can connect to any Bluetooth compatible device, yet the experience with an iPhone is still magical.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      That doesn't seem like a comparable scenario; Apple implements the Bluetooth standard (along with a bunch of others), which is defined by industry groups. In this case, it's not a standard.
    - hraedon 3y ago
      The relevant example here is that Apple supports the lowest common denominator standard: SMS. iMessage is what makes the experience "magical" on iPhones. The total failure of any open messaging standard to capture the market seems to imply to me that control is actually pretty important to the experience of using the service!
      - hamandcheese 3y ago
        It merely implies that being closed is more profitable, not that it is critical to the experience.
- covercash 3y ago
  I actually like the walled garden, things “just work” in here… I also have devices outside of the the walled garden but they take a bit more effort as far as initial set up and upkeep, things I’m willing to do but average Joe just wanting his tech to do what he tells it to do might not have the patience for.
- bigstrat2003 3y ago
  I would say people like the marketing. The average consumer gives no shits about product quality (see: the race to the bottom in basically every industry). But Apple has somehow convinced people that they are cool, so people buy their products.
  - Nextgrid 3y ago
    Apple is often less shitty than the alternative. Yes, the standards have dropped, but the competition has too, so the status quo stands. It's not just marketing.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > But Apple has somehow convinced people that they are cool, so people buy their products. That "somehow" is pretty easy to explain. Apple creates innovative products - the iPod, iPhone and AirPods were all the first-of-their-kind products - and especially, it creates long lasting products, both in terms of build quality and support. Good luck getting security updates (including drivers) for your 5 year old typical Windows laptop (or getting a modern OS running on it, see the issue with TPM requirements). Apple, on average, supports a device for ~6 years, and up to 9 years (!) for mobile devices [2]. Meanwhile, you're lucky if your Windows or Android device even lasts that long physically. On top of that, the battery lifetimes for Apple devices are insane compared to the competition - a feat that neither Windows nor Android can achieve as they lack the complete control over the entire stack, from CPU design over firmware over hardware to the OS and user-space libraries, that Apple has. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-getting-fewer-updates-than-they-used-to-heres-why-its-a-problem/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-gettin... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_iPhone_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_iPhone_models
    - sumuyuda 3y ago
      Not for sure where the claim of Windows machines lasting less than Apple products comes from. Before Windows 11, you could easily be running Windows 10 on a 10-15 year old computer.
thayne 3y ago
> it is why many people like Apple products so much and it's why (well one very big reason why) I hate Apple products, and avoid them.
- freedomben 3y ago
  Unfortunately we're heavily in the minority. The vast majority of people won't do this.
- Cyberdog 3y ago
  I wonder how many of the people complaining about the Apple ecosystem are doing so using a Google browser on a Google operating system running on a Google hardware device and found this site using the Google search engine and signed up using a Google Mail mail address and do work using Google's office suite and are listening to a video or music on Google's video sharing platform in the background as they type.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    Firefox, Graphene, Pixel, DDG, Proton, MS365, Rumble. 1/7 isn't bad, I guess.
darkwater 3y ago
> They want to control the entire user experience end to end, and it is why many people like Apple products so much. Totally. But in a messaging app context, that doesn't apply or even make sense. They could just release an iMessage app for Android and keep the experience exactly the same for their iPhone users.

Thats the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. They want to control the entire user experience end to end, and it is why many people like Apple products so much.

hamandcheese 3y ago

> Thats the entire point of the Apple ecosystem. They want to control the entire user experience end to end I don't doubt that. > and it is why many people like Apple products so much. No. People like the quality and the refinement and polish. In most cases those things to not require (as much of) a closed ecosystem. Beeper is proof of that.

ceejayoz 3y ago
The quality and refinement comes from the control. They don’t ever have to support a device they didn’t make themselves.
- skeaker 3y ago
  I have seen this argument so many times and it has never made sense to me. There is so much quality software that is free and open and interoperable. It is more than possible to be both open in nature and of high quality, to me that is indisputable. Apple obviously has a financial incentive to be locked down, they're not locked down out of any sort of necessity or as a concession for the sake of quality. In the case of Beeper Mini, the proof is in the pudding. You have evidence right in front of your face that an Android client for iMessage is possible, because one now exists. Does your iPhone suddenly feel lower quality to you?
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > You have evidence right in front of your face that an Android client for iMessage is possible, because one now exists. Sure, but I'm not the one who has to handle customer service for it. Apple can have a test suite that encompasses every possible supported device (and OS combination). That's much tougher if they want to support Android. > Does your iPhone suddenly feel lower quality to you? No, but that's missing the point. If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it.
    - Nextgrid 3y ago
      > some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it. Then you can blame their phone... just like you would now if your SMS messages to them were getting lost.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        If the iMessages fail, and give me the "try as SMS instead", I'm likely to blame iMessage.
    - freedomben 3y ago
      > If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it. You realize that's been Apple's fault right, intentionally breaking Beeper?
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        > You realize that's been Apple's fault right, intentionally breaking Beeper? Sure, it's impossible that Beeper's app or services could ever just malfunction on their own. The first bug-free app!
        freedomben 3y ago
        Oops, meant this to be a reply to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38603599 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38603599
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        Same answer either way; Beeper could break things in a way that results in delivery failures, and Apple could be blamed.
    - skeaker 3y ago
      Apple doesn't need to provide support for Android if they simply open their protocol and let whoever develops the Android client take care of that, as evidenced by Beeper Mini. > If Beeper catches on, and all my Android friends install it, and some of my messages start getting lost, delayed, what have you, that's when I'd start to feel it. In that case, you might be shocked to learn that before Beeper Mini you simply couldn't send iMessages to Android devices at all. Imagine that, ALL of your iMessages to them getting dropped and having to go through SMS instead...
- hamandcheese 3y ago
  Counterpoint: AirPods can connect to any Bluetooth compatible device, yet the experience with an iPhone is still magical.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    That doesn't seem like a comparable scenario; Apple implements the Bluetooth standard (along with a bunch of others), which is defined by industry groups. In this case, it's not a standard.
  - hraedon 3y ago
    The relevant example here is that Apple supports the lowest common denominator standard: SMS. iMessage is what makes the experience "magical" on iPhones. The total failure of any open messaging standard to capture the market seems to imply to me that control is actually pretty important to the experience of using the service!
    - hamandcheese 3y ago
      It merely implies that being closed is more profitable, not that it is critical to the experience.
covercash 3y ago
I actually like the walled garden, things “just work” in here… I also have devices outside of the the walled garden but they take a bit more effort as far as initial set up and upkeep, things I’m willing to do but average Joe just wanting his tech to do what he tells it to do might not have the patience for.
bigstrat2003 3y ago
I would say people like the marketing. The average consumer gives no shits about product quality (see: the race to the bottom in basically every industry). But Apple has somehow convinced people that they are cool, so people buy their products.
- Nextgrid 3y ago
  Apple is often less shitty than the alternative. Yes, the standards have dropped, but the competition has too, so the status quo stands. It's not just marketing.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > But Apple has somehow convinced people that they are cool, so people buy their products. That "somehow" is pretty easy to explain. Apple creates innovative products - the iPod, iPhone and AirPods were all the first-of-their-kind products - and especially, it creates long lasting products, both in terms of build quality and support. Good luck getting security updates (including drivers) for your 5 year old typical Windows laptop (or getting a modern OS running on it, see the issue with TPM requirements). Apple, on average, supports a device for ~6 years, and up to 9 years (!) for mobile devices [2]. Meanwhile, you're lucky if your Windows or Android device even lasts that long physically. On top of that, the battery lifetimes for Apple devices are insane compared to the competition - a feat that neither Windows nor Android can achieve as they lack the complete control over the entire stack, from CPU design over firmware over hardware to the OS and user-space libraries, that Apple has. [1] https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-getting-fewer-updates-than-they-used-to-heres-why-its-a-problem/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/07/some-macs-are-gettin... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_iPhone_models https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_iPhone_models
  - sumuyuda 3y ago
    Not for sure where the claim of Windows machines lasting less than Apple products comes from. Before Windows 11, you could easily be running Windows 10 on a 10-15 year old computer.

thayne 3y ago

> it is why many people like Apple products so much and it's why (well one very big reason why) I hate Apple products, and avoid them.

freedomben 3y ago
Unfortunately we're heavily in the minority. The vast majority of people won't do this.
Cyberdog 3y ago
I wonder how many of the people complaining about the Apple ecosystem are doing so using a Google browser on a Google operating system running on a Google hardware device and found this site using the Google search engine and signed up using a Google Mail mail address and do work using Google's office suite and are listening to a video or music on Google's video sharing platform in the background as they type.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  Firefox, Graphene, Pixel, DDG, Proton, MS365, Rumble. 1/7 isn't bad, I guess.

darkwater 3y ago

> They want to control the entire user experience end to end, and it is why many people like Apple products so much. Totally. But in a messaging app context, that doesn't apply or even make sense. They could just release an iMessage app for Android and keep the experience exactly the same for their iPhone users.