4 ms·

Yeah and then the non-technical co-founder treats you like you're worthless because you're "just a programmer"

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
redm 3y ago
That may be more of a personality conflict. There's no more important choice than who you co-found with, and both parties should have high regard for each other's value to the business.
- distortionfield 3y ago
  Of course that’s how it _should_ be. After working at enough startups in very early and/or founder roles, I can tell you it’s more common than not to get treated like a second class citizen when the “business” dinners come.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
distortionfield 3y ago
A tale as old as time. Gotta love the classic spin on the same trope of “the C suite drives the sales tho” to justify their insane salaries and bonuses. like they’d have anything to sell in the first place.
- robertlagrant 3y ago
  Yes, you need to make and sell things. They're both difficult.
  - distortionfield 3y ago
    I’m not diminishing the effort and skill necessary to be a good salesperson. I am, however, commenting on how often that turns into engineers being kept “in the back” when the paperwork starts.
madeofpalk 3y ago
Don't co-found a company with an jerk.
Alupis 3y ago
Might I suggest not being "just a programmer" then? In a startup it's extremely important for founders to wear many hats and share many burdens. If you're the person that just goes off into a cave and emerges with beautiful code 6 weeks later and then expects everything to be great - you're wrong. There's a massive amount of foundational work to do to support a startup that technical people don't even think about.
- chefandy 3y ago
  As someone who's rarely been "just a programmer" or "just a designer," that hasn't stopped me from being viewed as such by managers if it's convenient for them to mentally classify me as such.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Your cofounder in a new startup isn't your manager.
    - chefandy 3y ago
      The point is you can act like whatever you want, and so can everybody else, and often that means they'll be idiots, often in consequential ways. That's life.
      - Alupis 3y ago
        The point is if you act like an employee, you will be treated as an employee. Starting a company is not easy. If you stand around and only do tech, then you're not a founder, you are an employee. If you have to ask "what needs to be done next?" you are not a founder, you are an employee. If you call someone your manager, then you are an employee.
  - Alupis 3y ago
    If that's happening then you're not really a cofounder - you're acting like an employee. If you're a cofounder you do not have a manager... Starting a company requires a diverse set of skills, almost none of which are technical. A technical person can excel at those tasks, but they have to have the desire to figure out what needs to be done before asking what needs to be done.
cmrdporcupine 3y ago
It's interesting, how all this stuff is written for the biz-bros, too -- try doing a google search on how to find a non-technical cofounder. Like, say you're an eng, with a technical idea you think would make the foundation of a good startup, and you're looking for someone to "found" the PM/marketing/bizdev side of things. From what I can see, the content/advice doesn't exist, even via YCombinator.
- kragen 3y ago
  why would you want a nontechnical cofounder to do the pm/marketing/bizdev side of things? a nontechnical person might be able to do those things, but technical ignorance or incompetence are not necessary for them, and aren't even assets; they're just less serious drawbacks there than elsewhere you might genuinely need some nontechnical people in your startup, but if you have some money you can always pay people to come be part of a focus group or user test when that's necessary
  - distortionfield 3y ago
    Why would you want a nontechnical cofounder to do these 3 specialized full-time roles? Is this a serious question? > but if you have some money lol . Just… lol.
    - kragen 3y ago
      yes. why would you want the three people doing those three specialized full-time roles to be nontechnical? it seems to me that, given a nontechnical person who's good at one or more of those roles, they'd obviously be even better at it if they also understood the technology. ignorance and incompetence are weaknesses, not strengths as for having some money, the context of this discussion is startups with angel or vc funding, which is plenty for focus groups and some user tests
      - distortionfield 3y ago
        Because good luck finding those three roles where they’re from a technical background? I’ve worked with a grand total of one PM who was from a technical background. He was actually a great engineer but he was absolutely the exception to the rule. Sure, if you can flesh your team out with entirely technical people filling those roles, great for you, but that’s like asking why you wouldn’t only hire 10x engineers. Well of course if you could find and hire only 10x engineers you would, but it doesn’t work like that. Especially considering those are all industry positions that are typically taken by people who never went into technical roles.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

redm 3y ago

That may be more of a personality conflict. There's no more important choice than who you co-found with, and both parties should have high regard for each other's value to the business.

distortionfield 3y ago
Of course that’s how it _should_ be. After working at enough startups in very early and/or founder roles, I can tell you it’s more common than not to get treated like a second class citizen when the “business” dinners come.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

distortionfield 3y ago

A tale as old as time. Gotta love the classic spin on the same trope of “the C suite drives the sales tho” to justify their insane salaries and bonuses. like they’d have anything to sell in the first place.

robertlagrant 3y ago
Yes, you need to make and sell things. They're both difficult.
- distortionfield 3y ago
  I’m not diminishing the effort and skill necessary to be a good salesperson. I am, however, commenting on how often that turns into engineers being kept “in the back” when the paperwork starts.

madeofpalk 3y ago

Don't co-found a company with an jerk.

Alupis 3y ago

Might I suggest not being "just a programmer" then? In a startup it's extremely important for founders to wear many hats and share many burdens. If you're the person that just goes off into a cave and emerges with beautiful code 6 weeks later and then expects everything to be great - you're wrong. There's a massive amount of foundational work to do to support a startup that technical people don't even think about.

chefandy 3y ago
As someone who's rarely been "just a programmer" or "just a designer," that hasn't stopped me from being viewed as such by managers if it's convenient for them to mentally classify me as such.
- tptacek 3y ago
  Your cofounder in a new startup isn't your manager.
  - chefandy 3y ago
    The point is you can act like whatever you want, and so can everybody else, and often that means they'll be idiots, often in consequential ways. That's life.
    - Alupis 3y ago
      The point is if you act like an employee, you will be treated as an employee. Starting a company is not easy. If you stand around and only do tech, then you're not a founder, you are an employee. If you have to ask "what needs to be done next?" you are not a founder, you are an employee. If you call someone your manager, then you are an employee.
- Alupis 3y ago
  If that's happening then you're not really a cofounder - you're acting like an employee. If you're a cofounder you do not have a manager... Starting a company requires a diverse set of skills, almost none of which are technical. A technical person can excel at those tasks, but they have to have the desire to figure out what needs to be done before asking what needs to be done.

cmrdporcupine 3y ago

It's interesting, how all this stuff is written for the biz-bros, too -- try doing a google search on how to find a non-technical cofounder. Like, say you're an eng, with a technical idea you think would make the foundation of a good startup, and you're looking for someone to "found" the PM/marketing/bizdev side of things. From what I can see, the content/advice doesn't exist, even via YCombinator.

kragen 3y ago
why would you want a nontechnical cofounder to do the pm/marketing/bizdev side of things? a nontechnical person might be able to do those things, but technical ignorance or incompetence are not necessary for them, and aren't even assets; they're just less serious drawbacks there than elsewhere you might genuinely need some nontechnical people in your startup, but if you have some money you can always pay people to come be part of a focus group or user test when that's necessary
- distortionfield 3y ago
  Why would you want a nontechnical cofounder to do these 3 specialized full-time roles? Is this a serious question? > but if you have some money lol . Just… lol.
  - kragen 3y ago
    yes. why would you want the three people doing those three specialized full-time roles to be nontechnical? it seems to me that, given a nontechnical person who's good at one or more of those roles, they'd obviously be even better at it if they also understood the technology. ignorance and incompetence are weaknesses, not strengths as for having some money, the context of this discussion is startups with angel or vc funding, which is plenty for focus groups and some user tests
    - distortionfield 3y ago
      Because good luck finding those three roles where they’re from a technical background? I’ve worked with a grand total of one PM who was from a technical background. He was actually a great engineer but he was absolutely the exception to the rule. Sure, if you can flesh your team out with entirely technical people filling those roles, great for you, but that’s like asking why you wouldn’t only hire 10x engineers. Well of course if you could find and hire only 10x engineers you would, but it doesn’t work like that. Especially considering those are all industry positions that are typically taken by people who never went into technical roles.