6 ms·

I understand this may be an unpopular take here on HN (it certainly isn't in the real world), but but I can't see these people as anything other than pathetic.

I understand this may be an unpopular take here on HN (it certainly isn't in the real world), but but I can't see these people as anything other than pathetic. Go out, get a hobby, and meet real people. Jesus christ.

gabeaweg 3y ago
Good tip. Also, if you are depressed, you should just cheer up!
- arcanemachiner 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - x86x87 3y ago
    If you break a lef, just walk it off
hanselot 3y ago
This is one of those topics where proponents will not show up in comment because of the stigma. Realistically there's a whole sector of male society that are not able to find real partners. Is it really that depressing to you that people would rather talk to their favourite person than some lady shouting about how shoelaces are racist and misogynist?
- dullcrisp 3y ago
  There’s gotta be a word for people who think that all women do is complain about misogyny.
  - hanselot 3y ago
    Ahh yes. I will fight labels using my labels. Then it's simply a label race to the bottom. My partner recently bought a label maker and I find it quite entertaining how obsessed he is with stereotyping our objects in the house. I will probably never understand the duplicitous logic that comes with sexual identity and why being attracted to the same sex somehow not only labels you but also means you become an advocate for labels.
    - jasonlotito 3y ago
      > I will fight labels using my labels. And you did just that! Congrats on racing to the bottom.
      - hanselot 3y ago
        A pointless endeavour, I agree. So shall we just do away with the labels and agree that people are inscrutable entities beyond the definition of a simple label? We are but one possible reality seeded by some or other starting inputs, with no say in the choices we make. Fated to execute instructions at the whim of some entity we can't comprehend from within the confines of dimensional space. Regardless of how you view my preceding comments, you have to admit the dating game for single straight men is a nightmare right now. Source: believe it or not I have a lot of straight friends and one of them literally recently got robbed by a hooker via tinder. They had a card machine and everything. So tell me what the harm is in letting those people discover more about themselves via a fancy autocorrect, at least they aren't out there getting robbed by hookers.
    - dullcrisp 3y ago
      I didn’t mean a label. Like if I call someone a hypocrite I’m not labeling them, I’m expressing something about them that would be tedious to do in complete sentences. In this case I’m looking for something like someone-who-complains-about-things-only-caused-by-their-complaining-about-them. There’s probably something Greek. Like a complaining ouroboros.
  - stef25 3y ago
    incels
- slibhb 3y ago
  This is like the debate over welfare and free-riders. There are some people who need welfare to get by. They cannot provide for themselves. But once a welfare program is created, there will be a different number of people who don't need it but decide to live off it anyway. AI companions are the same deal. There are definitely people who can't socialize. But once you invent AI companions, some number of people who could learn to socialize never will.
  - HPsquared 3y ago
    In the long run, relating to others might become one of those obsolete skills (like reciting epic poetry or writing in cursive).
  - hanselot 3y ago
    Damn that's the perfect analogy for it. So let me flip that. What about the dark side of society that can't express themselves legally or physically in whatever their jurisdiction. Those people may be able to gain some facsimile of intimacy instead of execution etc. Not sure how that fits into the welfare scenario though.
  - guntherhermann 3y ago
    This is a fascinating take that I've never really considered. Thanks
- MarcusE1W 3y ago
  This article is about companion AIs but a similar issue will probably arise around conversational AIs for older and lonely people. I guess this is a very individual decision, but I can’t see how you can devise someone to just sit lonely in an (maybe not so great) elderly care home who finds comfort in chatting with an AI to “just find other friends”. For some people it’s that or nothing.
catchnear4321 3y ago
> Go out, get a hobby, and meet real people. these are all easiest pursued from a starting point of good mental health. so those that may need it the most, may be least likely to be… able. this is going to be a more unpopular opinion than yours (happy to help) but these flippant responses to “just be healthy” are anything but.
- jprete 3y ago
  The route to good mental health probably doesn't run through "have an AI girlfriend", though.
  - Grimblewald 3y ago
    I supoose it depends on how its implemented. Mental healthcare is less accesible than ever while at the same time the population is being squeezed in a way where most have less energy than ever before in recent memory to deal with other peoples emotional labor. This means AI might be a useful tool for helping people feel heard and supported, which is often enough to get people motivated to make a change. However, if capitalistic interest is behind it I anticipate it will result in a product that holds your short term mental health hostage through a subscription service randsom. The problem isn't Ai, it's profit incentive in a field which is inherently perverse to profit from.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - taneq 3y ago
    I’d imagine a suitably supportive AI girlfriend would be better for your mental health than a toxic relationship with a real human.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    The route to good mental health generally starts with parents with good mental health then a social circle of people with good mental health. This begs the question, what if you were not born with that privilege? Just tell them to go online and look up resources on better mental health? Yea, this is how you end up being an incel because telling people "It's not your fault, it's everyone else's fault" is a very effective trap huge parts of populations fall in (especially those with bad mental health). Oh, the route to better mental health is the US healthcare system. Your insurance is paying for that right? So the route to better mental health is connections with other people... which you don't have, and you don't have the internal tools to build. Especially without fear of rejection. But hey, this conversation isn't about you right, you have perfect mental health? In fact with that good mental health you go out and help other people that are stuck in traps? Or do you do your own list of things focusing on the next step you're taking on your hedonistic treadmill? It's always easy to point out how someone else is obviously wrong and how they shouldn't fall in that trap, but when you see hundreds of thousands to millions of people falling in that trap then something isn't as obvious as you think.
vasco 3y ago
Says the man sitting inside on the computer, getting annoyed at some letters that showed up on the screen.
- mckirk 3y ago
  'But the little lights are all wrong!'
- guntherhermann 3y ago
  Well, I have to spend about 7 hours a day inside on a computer, as I'm sure you do too! I have to spend my time doing 'something' while Jenkins does its thing :) PS. I'd say it's more 'exasperation' at the scenario than annoyance at the words. We could sit here playing reductio ad absurdum all day, but I don't think it's useful to do so.
js8 3y ago
Do you also see getting a pet as pathetic?
- ninjha01 3y ago
  I personally don't, and I think it's because pets make demands of you. Walking a dog, making sure your cat is up to date on vaccines, feeding your fish, etc. These all require some level of sacrifice, which strikes me as inherently un-pathetic. Which points the way to a new Turing test. Something like: "Can an AI credibly make a demand of the user?"
  - js8 3y ago
    Right. But if AI girlfriend doesn't make demands to you, then it's just a boring novelty, isn't it? Why engage with something like that, it's like cheating in a computer game. How it can make you happy? I feel the problem you paint will solve itself. It doesn't seem to me it will have worse outcomes than computer gaming.
- seti0Cha 3y ago
  Honestly, I think people who have explicitly replaced children with pets are kind of pathetic. I'm not condemning anyone or demanding that others make the choices I have, but I find something very sad about those "I love my grand-dog" bumper stickers. Perhaps those people are perfectly happy, but I can't help but see a huge gap between what a grandchild can provide vs. your child having a dog that you love.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
doublerabbit 3y ago
> Go out, get a hobby, and meet real people To get a hobby takes time. It's not an overnight action. You may dedicate time and find that after a month the hobby you took up isn't yours. If your stuck in a mental mindset this hurts. Even when you find a hobby to enjoy you then need to dedicate time to build a rapport to those who are already established in that hobby. There is a large outer circle you need to navigate. People will bat eyes at you, may greet you at first but won't form relations. Why would they waste energy on you when you could disappear in a months time? A hobby takes months of constant effort and mental strain while your being subconsciously judged to make a connection. Make a wrong joke, say the wrong thing at the wrong time and you can jeopardise the whole effort. We currently live in a state of defence and that if your mental image doesn't strike the other party the percentage is high that they will be hesitant to make rapport with you. To those with difficulties such as anxiety, introverted and the likes its even more hard. Taking upon a hobby to improve yourself is a good way to go but to actually make friends and the likes; easier said then done. It sucks making friends, I've been attending a new sword fencing club for three months now. I have nothing in common with anyone there, I was acquaintances with one of the fencers and that some how snowballed. Not understanding why, I now have to navigate around them. Which for me is now a mental strain; when all I wish to do is bout and fence. It doesn't always turn out to be.
nathanfig 3y ago
Judging by the comments this seems like a very popular take. But I really wish we could move from "wow I hate that" to thinking through the right response, because it's likely going to be our children forming these relationships very soon.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
the_third_wave 3y ago
Of course that would be the best solution. It is just that these are risk-averse and socially shy men who tended to either not go to the school dance or if they did were glued to the walls, not getting picked by any girl and not in possession of enough testicular fortitude to go and ask one because (shock and horror) she might (would) say no and start giggling with her friends about that "weirdo" wanting to dance with her. Fast forward a decade and there was #MeToo which meant that even glancing at a woman could get them ostracised for being the creeps they already thought they were while those girls from school put up Tinder profiles where they all competed for the top 10% of men - looks like a movie star, makes a zillion $currency_units, might be a bastard who already has a number of girls but that doesn't matter. These ´AI girlfriends' and 'AI boyfriends' (I guess those exist as well) are just another sign of the way dating and sexuality have been dehumanised, commercialised and in some ways ideologically weaponised. If this is what the sexual revolution has brought us it is time to rethink the premise of the concepts. In some ways that is already happening - viz. the 'trad wife' phenomenon - but the real solution would be to find a way to retain the good bits from said sexual revolution while getting rid of the parts which led us [1] to where we are now. Something which would appeal not only to those of a more conservative bent, i.e. a way which also appeals to most women [2]. Our future is at stake, quite literally: no relationships means no children means no future. This does not mean that children will not be born any more, it just means that they won't be our children who carry along our traditions and cultures - those traditions and cultures which we claim to value where people are born equal with the same rights, where men and women are equal under the law, where freedom of consciousness, religion and speech are guaranteed to a differing but mostly large extent, where those who happen to be romantically attracted to their own sex do not get thrown off buildings or sentenced to prison or 'converted' or chemically castrated. We fought quite hard to arrive where we were a few decades ago, by no means perfect - perfection is the enemy of good - but certainly better than before and also better than most other places so it does not make sense to throw all those gains to the wind in the name of... what, exactly? [1] as in 'those parts of the world where the sexual revolution took place and had these detrimental effects' [2] for just another proof of the fact that men and women are not interchangeable it suffices to look at the difference in political opinions between 'the average man' and 'the average woman'. Yes, there are 'liberal' men. Yes, there are 'conservative' women. That does not negate the fact that women on average lean more towards 'liberalism' while men tend to lean more towards 'conservatism'.
j_crick 3y ago
Can you precisely describe the cascade of thoughts and feelings that provoked you to write this comment?

gabeaweg 3y ago

Good tip. Also, if you are depressed, you should just cheer up!

arcanemachiner 3y ago
[flagged]
- x86x87 3y ago
  If you break a lef, just walk it off

hanselot 3y ago

This is one of those topics where proponents will not show up in comment because of the stigma. Realistically there's a whole sector of male society that are not able to find real partners. Is it really that depressing to you that people would rather talk to their favourite person than some lady shouting about how shoelaces are racist and misogynist?

dullcrisp 3y ago
There’s gotta be a word for people who think that all women do is complain about misogyny.
- hanselot 3y ago
  Ahh yes. I will fight labels using my labels. Then it's simply a label race to the bottom. My partner recently bought a label maker and I find it quite entertaining how obsessed he is with stereotyping our objects in the house. I will probably never understand the duplicitous logic that comes with sexual identity and why being attracted to the same sex somehow not only labels you but also means you become an advocate for labels.
  - jasonlotito 3y ago
    > I will fight labels using my labels. And you did just that! Congrats on racing to the bottom.
    - hanselot 3y ago
      A pointless endeavour, I agree. So shall we just do away with the labels and agree that people are inscrutable entities beyond the definition of a simple label? We are but one possible reality seeded by some or other starting inputs, with no say in the choices we make. Fated to execute instructions at the whim of some entity we can't comprehend from within the confines of dimensional space. Regardless of how you view my preceding comments, you have to admit the dating game for single straight men is a nightmare right now. Source: believe it or not I have a lot of straight friends and one of them literally recently got robbed by a hooker via tinder. They had a card machine and everything. So tell me what the harm is in letting those people discover more about themselves via a fancy autocorrect, at least they aren't out there getting robbed by hookers.
  - dullcrisp 3y ago
    I didn’t mean a label. Like if I call someone a hypocrite I’m not labeling them, I’m expressing something about them that would be tedious to do in complete sentences. In this case I’m looking for something like someone-who-complains-about-things-only-caused-by-their-complaining-about-them. There’s probably something Greek. Like a complaining ouroboros.
- stef25 3y ago
  incels
slibhb 3y ago
This is like the debate over welfare and free-riders. There are some people who need welfare to get by. They cannot provide for themselves. But once a welfare program is created, there will be a different number of people who don't need it but decide to live off it anyway. AI companions are the same deal. There are definitely people who can't socialize. But once you invent AI companions, some number of people who could learn to socialize never will.
- HPsquared 3y ago
  In the long run, relating to others might become one of those obsolete skills (like reciting epic poetry or writing in cursive).
- hanselot 3y ago
  Damn that's the perfect analogy for it. So let me flip that. What about the dark side of society that can't express themselves legally or physically in whatever their jurisdiction. Those people may be able to gain some facsimile of intimacy instead of execution etc. Not sure how that fits into the welfare scenario though.
- guntherhermann 3y ago
  This is a fascinating take that I've never really considered. Thanks
MarcusE1W 3y ago
This article is about companion AIs but a similar issue will probably arise around conversational AIs for older and lonely people. I guess this is a very individual decision, but I can’t see how you can devise someone to just sit lonely in an (maybe not so great) elderly care home who finds comfort in chatting with an AI to “just find other friends”. For some people it’s that or nothing.

catchnear4321 3y ago

> Go out, get a hobby, and meet real people. these are all easiest pursued from a starting point of good mental health. so those that may need it the most, may be least likely to be… able. this is going to be a more unpopular opinion than yours (happy to help) but these flippant responses to “just be healthy” are anything but.

jprete 3y ago
The route to good mental health probably doesn't run through "have an AI girlfriend", though.
- Grimblewald 3y ago
  I supoose it depends on how its implemented. Mental healthcare is less accesible than ever while at the same time the population is being squeezed in a way where most have less energy than ever before in recent memory to deal with other peoples emotional labor. This means AI might be a useful tool for helping people feel heard and supported, which is often enough to get people motivated to make a change. However, if capitalistic interest is behind it I anticipate it will result in a product that holds your short term mental health hostage through a subscription service randsom. The problem isn't Ai, it's profit incentive in a field which is inherently perverse to profit from.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- taneq 3y ago
  I’d imagine a suitably supportive AI girlfriend would be better for your mental health than a toxic relationship with a real human.
- pixl97 3y ago
  The route to good mental health generally starts with parents with good mental health then a social circle of people with good mental health. This begs the question, what if you were not born with that privilege? Just tell them to go online and look up resources on better mental health? Yea, this is how you end up being an incel because telling people "It's not your fault, it's everyone else's fault" is a very effective trap huge parts of populations fall in (especially those with bad mental health). Oh, the route to better mental health is the US healthcare system. Your insurance is paying for that right? So the route to better mental health is connections with other people... which you don't have, and you don't have the internal tools to build. Especially without fear of rejection. But hey, this conversation isn't about you right, you have perfect mental health? In fact with that good mental health you go out and help other people that are stuck in traps? Or do you do your own list of things focusing on the next step you're taking on your hedonistic treadmill? It's always easy to point out how someone else is obviously wrong and how they shouldn't fall in that trap, but when you see hundreds of thousands to millions of people falling in that trap then something isn't as obvious as you think.

vasco 3y ago

Says the man sitting inside on the computer, getting annoyed at some letters that showed up on the screen.

mckirk 3y ago
'But the little lights are all wrong!'
guntherhermann 3y ago
Well, I have to spend about 7 hours a day inside on a computer, as I'm sure you do too! I have to spend my time doing 'something' while Jenkins does its thing :) PS. I'd say it's more 'exasperation' at the scenario than annoyance at the words. We could sit here playing reductio ad absurdum all day, but I don't think it's useful to do so.

js8 3y ago

Do you also see getting a pet as pathetic?

ninjha01 3y ago
I personally don't, and I think it's because pets make demands of you. Walking a dog, making sure your cat is up to date on vaccines, feeding your fish, etc. These all require some level of sacrifice, which strikes me as inherently un-pathetic. Which points the way to a new Turing test. Something like: "Can an AI credibly make a demand of the user?"
- js8 3y ago
  Right. But if AI girlfriend doesn't make demands to you, then it's just a boring novelty, isn't it? Why engage with something like that, it's like cheating in a computer game. How it can make you happy? I feel the problem you paint will solve itself. It doesn't seem to me it will have worse outcomes than computer gaming.
seti0Cha 3y ago
Honestly, I think people who have explicitly replaced children with pets are kind of pathetic. I'm not condemning anyone or demanding that others make the choices I have, but I find something very sad about those "I love my grand-dog" bumper stickers. Perhaps those people are perfectly happy, but I can't help but see a huge gap between what a grandchild can provide vs. your child having a dog that you love.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

doublerabbit 3y ago

> Go out, get a hobby, and meet real people To get a hobby takes time. It's not an overnight action. You may dedicate time and find that after a month the hobby you took up isn't yours. If your stuck in a mental mindset this hurts. Even when you find a hobby to enjoy you then need to dedicate time to build a rapport to those who are already established in that hobby. There is a large outer circle you need to navigate. People will bat eyes at you, may greet you at first but won't form relations. Why would they waste energy on you when you could disappear in a months time? A hobby takes months of constant effort and mental strain while your being subconsciously judged to make a connection. Make a wrong joke, say the wrong thing at the wrong time and you can jeopardise the whole effort. We currently live in a state of defence and that if your mental image doesn't strike the other party the percentage is high that they will be hesitant to make rapport with you. To those with difficulties such as anxiety, introverted and the likes its even more hard. Taking upon a hobby to improve yourself is a good way to go but to actually make friends and the likes; easier said then done. It sucks making friends, I've been attending a new sword fencing club for three months now. I have nothing in common with anyone there, I was acquaintances with one of the fencers and that some how snowballed. Not understanding why, I now have to navigate around them. Which for me is now a mental strain; when all I wish to do is bout and fence. It doesn't always turn out to be.

nathanfig 3y ago

Judging by the comments this seems like a very popular take. But I really wish we could move from "wow I hate that" to thinking through the right response, because it's likely going to be our children forming these relationships very soon.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

the_third_wave 3y ago

Of course that would be the best solution. It is just that these are risk-averse and socially shy men who tended to either not go to the school dance or if they did were glued to the walls, not getting picked by any girl and not in possession of enough testicular fortitude to go and ask one because (shock and horror) she might (would) say no and start giggling with her friends about that "weirdo" wanting to dance with her. Fast forward a decade and there was #MeToo which meant that even glancing at a woman could get them ostracised for being the creeps they already thought they were while those girls from school put up Tinder profiles where they all competed for the top 10% of men - looks like a movie star, makes a zillion $currency_units, might be a bastard who already has a number of girls but that doesn't matter. These ´AI girlfriends' and 'AI boyfriends' (I guess those exist as well) are just another sign of the way dating and sexuality have been dehumanised, commercialised and in some ways ideologically weaponised. If this is what the sexual revolution has brought us it is time to rethink the premise of the concepts. In some ways that is already happening - viz. the 'trad wife' phenomenon - but the real solution would be to find a way to retain the good bits from said sexual revolution while getting rid of the parts which led us [1] to where we are now. Something which would appeal not only to those of a more conservative bent, i.e. a way which also appeals to most women [2]. Our future is at stake, quite literally: no relationships means no children means no future. This does not mean that children will not be born any more, it just means that they won't be our children who carry along our traditions and cultures - those traditions and cultures which we claim to value where people are born equal with the same rights, where men and women are equal under the law, where freedom of consciousness, religion and speech are guaranteed to a differing but mostly large extent, where those who happen to be romantically attracted to their own sex do not get thrown off buildings or sentenced to prison or 'converted' or chemically castrated. We fought quite hard to arrive where we were a few decades ago, by no means perfect - perfection is the enemy of good - but certainly better than before and also better than most other places so it does not make sense to throw all those gains to the wind in the name of... what, exactly? [1] as in 'those parts of the world where the sexual revolution took place and had these detrimental effects' [2] for just another proof of the fact that men and women are not interchangeable it suffices to look at the difference in political opinions between 'the average man' and 'the average woman'. Yes, there are 'liberal' men. Yes, there are 'conservative' women. That does not negate the fact that women on average lean more towards 'liberalism' while men tend to lean more towards 'conservatism'.

j_crick 3y ago

Can you precisely describe the cascade of thoughts and feelings that provoked you to write this comment?