6 ms·

> Violating patents is one thing, as you're only violating the concept/idea, but the implementation is still up to you The concept/idea is not what is patented

> Violating patents is one thing, as you're only violating the concept/idea, but the implementation is still up to you The concept/idea is not what is patented. The patent is (or should be) for the specific execution of the idea. Competitors are free to implement their feature using methods other that what is covered by the patent, even if the end result gives the exact same functionality.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>The concept/idea is not what is patented. The patent is (or should be) for the specific execution of the idea. Have you ever seen patents? They rarely cover the implementation details, or at most they're intentionally super vague about that, most of the time it's just the general idea on how the widget would work and what it does, but not how to implement it technically.
- throwaway54_56 3y ago
  I have seen patents. The whole point is to share a method of doing something, in return for exclusive use of that method for a period of time. That's the theory, anyway.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Then you misunderstood or saw too few patents.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - anon373839 3y ago
    I’m sure we’ll all be glad one day that Apple shared this research breakthrough: https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/6/16614038/apple-samsung-slide-to-unlock-supreme-court-120-million https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/6/16614038/apple-samsung-sl...
    - objclxt 3y ago
      You realize the patent you’re referring to was a design patent, not a utility patent? They are very different, the former only covers look and feel, not method.
      - anon373839 3y ago
        I wasn’t aware of that. But it’s even more baffling: how did they qualify for a patent on the design of a basic sliding latch?
    - criddell 3y ago
      A good example of a patent that was challenged in court and wasn’t totally invalidated is Amazon’s 1-click ordering. They patented storing customer shipping and payment details in a database so they could purchase something with a single click. It expired in 2017 but for the period it was in force, Amazon collected millions in licensing fees.
      - SoftTalker 3y ago
        Patents really shouldn't be granted when any competent junior engineer could have designed and implemented the feature. This method is doesn't pass the "nonobvious" test.
        User23 3y ago
        Batteries used to have cardboard instead of metal shells. Because of this batteries used to leak prolifically. Then an inventor patented the modern metal shelled battery. His competitors all started infringing so he sued. They claimed that the invention was "obvious." The judge ruled that it clearly wasn't obvious, because if it had been they wouldn't have been making the obnoxiously stupid cardboard batteries for so many years.
        SoftTalker 3y ago
        I'd still argue that it was obvious. They just didn't do it because cardboard was cheaper.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- BaculumMeumEst 3y ago
  > They rarely cover the implementation details if you can’t figure out how its implemented you’re looking at an invalid patent or an application > they're intentionally super vague about that yes that’s how claims work > most of the time it's just the general idea on how the widget would work and what it does, but not how to implement it technically you’re looking at an invalid patent or an application
atq2119 3y ago
Idea is a pretty general term. I have a bunch of patents and I would describe them all as patenting an idea (for how to achieve some goal). The implementation or execution of the idea usually takes the form of some Verilog or some C++. That is covered by copyright. The patent is for the idea. Which is part of why I'm so opposed to patents, not just in software. In other fields, like medicine, patents are perhaps for discoveries, which are IMHO similarly valuable as the execution. But ideas aren't that valuable, or shouldn't be.
dctoedt 3y ago
> The concept/idea is not what is patented. The patent is (or should be) for the specific execution of the idea. Competitors are free to implement their feature using methods other that what is covered by the patent, even if the end result gives the exact same functionality. IP lawyer here (EDIT: not yours, of course): That's a considerable (and potentially-dangerous) oversimplification. What matters is whether what you do comes within the claims of the patent. (For a more-detailed explanation, written in pseudocode-like terms, see a 2010 post I did: https://www.oncontracts.com/how-patent-claims-work-a-variety-of-different-and-statements-all-ord-together/ https://www.oncontracts.com/how-patent-claims-work-a-variety....)
- dmoy 3y ago
  Yea, this is a more correct explanation. Not a patent lawyer, but raised by one lol. Tangentially, it gets difficult in software because a lot of patents are .... maybe overbroad in their wording of claims. Lot of ambiguous looking landmines. This is somewhat similar to business method patents (which were curtailed a little by the SC a decade ago, but were already known to be kinda sketchy for decade+ before that). Can't patent a pure algorithm, for example.
- david-gpu 3y ago
  At some point I was told to never ever look at a competitor's patents, because doing so would worsen the penalties if it turned out that our design infringed upon them. Can you confirm that's true? Doesn't that mean that in general it is also a really bad idea to ask an engineer questions about a particular piece of tech that they patented at a previous employer, even though the specific information is a matter of public record by virtue of being explained in the patent?
  - pierat 3y ago
    Just search it in Yandex with a VPN, and in a Tails VM just for paranoid-icity. I did similar for medical self-symptom before ACA prevented "pre-existing condition" scam.
    - 3y ago
conradev 3y ago
The specific execution of an idea is also an idea, though I feel like the granularity of patents is defined more so by where the frontier of knowledge is for a given domain than the patent office (i.e. what is hard but also valuable). But, I also haven’t spent a lot of time with patents

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>The concept/idea is not what is patented. The patent is (or should be) for the specific execution of the idea. Have you ever seen patents? They rarely cover the implementation details, or at most they're intentionally super vague about that, most of the time it's just the general idea on how the widget would work and what it does, but not how to implement it technically.

throwaway54_56 3y ago
I have seen patents. The whole point is to share a method of doing something, in return for exclusive use of that method for a period of time. That's the theory, anyway.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Then you misunderstood or saw too few patents.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- anon373839 3y ago
  I’m sure we’ll all be glad one day that Apple shared this research breakthrough: https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/6/16614038/apple-samsung-slide-to-unlock-supreme-court-120-million https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/6/16614038/apple-samsung-sl...
  - objclxt 3y ago
    You realize the patent you’re referring to was a design patent, not a utility patent? They are very different, the former only covers look and feel, not method.
    - anon373839 3y ago
      I wasn’t aware of that. But it’s even more baffling: how did they qualify for a patent on the design of a basic sliding latch?
  - criddell 3y ago
    A good example of a patent that was challenged in court and wasn’t totally invalidated is Amazon’s 1-click ordering. They patented storing customer shipping and payment details in a database so they could purchase something with a single click. It expired in 2017 but for the period it was in force, Amazon collected millions in licensing fees.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      Patents really shouldn't be granted when any competent junior engineer could have designed and implemented the feature. This method is doesn't pass the "nonobvious" test.
      - User23 3y ago
        Batteries used to have cardboard instead of metal shells. Because of this batteries used to leak prolifically. Then an inventor patented the modern metal shelled battery. His competitors all started infringing so he sued. They claimed that the invention was "obvious." The judge ruled that it clearly wasn't obvious, because if it had been they wouldn't have been making the obnoxiously stupid cardboard batteries for so many years.
        SoftTalker 3y ago
        I'd still argue that it was obvious. They just didn't do it because cardboard was cheaper.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
BaculumMeumEst 3y ago
> They rarely cover the implementation details if you can’t figure out how its implemented you’re looking at an invalid patent or an application > they're intentionally super vague about that yes that’s how claims work > most of the time it's just the general idea on how the widget would work and what it does, but not how to implement it technically you’re looking at an invalid patent or an application

atq2119 3y ago

Idea is a pretty general term. I have a bunch of patents and I would describe them all as patenting an idea (for how to achieve some goal). The implementation or execution of the idea usually takes the form of some Verilog or some C++. That is covered by copyright. The patent is for the idea. Which is part of why I'm so opposed to patents, not just in software. In other fields, like medicine, patents are perhaps for discoveries, which are IMHO similarly valuable as the execution. But ideas aren't that valuable, or shouldn't be.

dctoedt 3y ago

> The concept/idea is not what is patented. The patent is (or should be) for the specific execution of the idea. Competitors are free to implement their feature using methods other that what is covered by the patent, even if the end result gives the exact same functionality. IP lawyer here (EDIT: not yours, of course): That's a considerable (and potentially-dangerous) oversimplification. What matters is whether what you do comes within the claims of the patent. (For a more-detailed explanation, written in pseudocode-like terms, see a 2010 post I did: https://www.oncontracts.com/how-patent-claims-work-a-variety-of-different-and-statements-all-ord-together/ https://www.oncontracts.com/how-patent-claims-work-a-variety....)

dmoy 3y ago
Yea, this is a more correct explanation. Not a patent lawyer, but raised by one lol. Tangentially, it gets difficult in software because a lot of patents are .... maybe overbroad in their wording of claims. Lot of ambiguous looking landmines. This is somewhat similar to business method patents (which were curtailed a little by the SC a decade ago, but were already known to be kinda sketchy for decade+ before that). Can't patent a pure algorithm, for example.
david-gpu 3y ago
At some point I was told to never ever look at a competitor's patents, because doing so would worsen the penalties if it turned out that our design infringed upon them. Can you confirm that's true? Doesn't that mean that in general it is also a really bad idea to ask an engineer questions about a particular piece of tech that they patented at a previous employer, even though the specific information is a matter of public record by virtue of being explained in the patent?
- pierat 3y ago
  Just search it in Yandex with a VPN, and in a Tails VM just for paranoid-icity. I did similar for medical self-symptom before ACA prevented "pre-existing condition" scam.
  - 3y ago

conradev 3y ago

The specific execution of an idea is also an idea, though I feel like the granularity of patents is defined more so by where the frontier of knowledge is for a given domain than the patent office (i.e. what is hard but also valuable). But, I also haven’t spent a lot of time with patents