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I would agree with you if the entire issue really did exist in a vacuum where "consenting adults" were truly the only variables, but as we've demonstrably seen

• yieldcrv 3y ago
  these are labor trafficking issues, both forms of trafficking is illegal in all of those countries as well expanding access to labor rights, labor organizations, and the government prosecuting traffickers is a more productive use of resources than the rhetorical solution to the “mountains of evidence” you pointed out > Determining if two parties are actually "freely consenting" is notoriously difficult obsessing over that is odd, if you're not doing that in the rest of the employment market too. yes, people that aren't sex workers behave wildly different regarding boundaries and discernment in who they engage with, while putting the onus on sex workers to prove why they are different, right now, is folly and ineffective uncalled for vicarious interest at best and discrimination at worst a better use of energy to exercise any discomfort around possibly trafficked people is allowing sex workers access to the same labor avenues as the rest of the employment market allows them agency to better navigate everything you’re (ostensibly) worried about. even expanding what those avenues are.
  • qqtt 3y ago
    > expanding access to labor rights, labor organizations, and the government prosecuting traffickers is a more productive use of resources than the rhetorical solution to the “mountains of evidence” you pointed out Except counties that have legalized prostitution have tried this and failed. Again, there is evidence that legalizing prostitution increases the amount and scope of sex trafficking operations in said counties which have legalized. It isn't "Labor trafficking issues" - it is sex trafficking, and a very specific issue with legalizing prostitution. > obsessing over that is odd, if you're not doing that in the rest of the employment market too. Can you expand on why? Sex trafficking is a very specific form of labor exploitation which is tied up with prostitution - and it has been seen to demonstrably get worse after prostitution becomes legal. Why should this evidence be ignored or tied up with the broader umbrella of "labor exploitation"? > a better use of energy to exercise any discomfort around possibly trafficked people is allowing sex workers access to the same labor avenues as the rest of the employment market allows them agency to better navigate everything you’re (ostensibly) worried about. even expanding what those avenues are. I think advocates of legal prostitution like yourself like to say things about legalized prostitution that they wish were true, but reality tells a difference story. If it was better and easier for law enforcement and/or prostitutes to navigate sex trafficking when prostitution is legal, one would think we wouldn't see a marked increase in sex trafficking when prostitution becomes legal. What you keep doing here repeating "it's better for prostitutes to operate in a legal environment" is ignoring reality and sticking your head in the sand regarding the very real consequences for the 150$ billion a year sex trafficking industry which has very brutal and effective ways for suppressing/exploiting/manipulating their victims even in regions where prostitution is perfectly legal. Again, I totally agree that two consenting adults who aren't hurting anyone should have legal recourse to do what they want, as long as that situation exists in a vacuum. If there are huge externalities involved, such as 150 billion a year sex trafficking industries that can capitalize on legalization and which no country in the world has figured out how to suppress after legalization - well, that should at least be considered in any effort to legalize.
    • yieldcrv 3y ago
      what you’re missing is that I’m not disagreeing about the prevalence of sex trafficking, I never said anything that is the opposite of your observations and I don't know the advocates that you are grouping me in with that are doing what you’re triggered by. I don't gauge efficacy of a public policy based on whether sex trafficking exists or not. The other part I think is substantive to clarify is that there are far more similarities to all workers than there are differences. You don't need to rationalize to people why you are not being exploited, and it would be disingenuous if you tried to prove to everyone that you loved your job all the time. The reality is that sometimes it is fulfilling for you and other times it is a chore. If anything exploitative occurs there are power dynamics in play that compete with your willingness to address them. Labor rights issues that are completely valid to acknowledge and improve. The only thing being added is that sex workers should be equally included in that improvement. Countries with more trafficking need to prosecute the traffickers and get better at that. I’m not willing to criminalize sex workers or make their life more difficult just because an area may be bad at finding traffickers. Criminalizing consumers is ineffective too and have been shown to be a primary confidant a sex worker confides in, unless the consumer cant report due to being criminalized, so I’m not willing to make their life difficult either. Any policy based on marginalizing sex work harms ability to access labor rights, if blanket statements like that bother you, I could be open to a currently unexplored combination of policies. I’m not open to pretending that a solution is a worker or consumer criminalization framework just because of a perception of less trafficking occurring, in comparison to a decriminalized or legalized framework.
      • qqtt 3y ago
        I think our main disagreement is in the recognition of the fact that sex trafficking and prostitution are irrevocably linked, such that you cannot meaningfully tackle one without considering the other. Your approach would be to consider both in a vacuum. Let us legalize prostitution because according to you it is axiomatic that a legal framework will necessarily be better for participants of the prostitution industry, and we can consider sex trafficking as a wholly separate independent problem. I fundamentally disagree because based on available evidence, legalization of prostitution exacerbates the already existing sex trafficking problems which have demonstrable negative results in countries which have legalized prostitution. I also disagree with shoe horning sex trafficking into the existing umbrella of "labor exploitation" since sex trafficking is at a scale where it demands it's own consideration for solutions and ways to contain it's growing influence, and yes, one of those techniques is to outright outlaw prostitution to stymie the growth of this cancerous industry in the world. Fundamentally, you are making a trade off here - you are saying worker rights for prostitution trump stopping the spread of sex trafficking. You could argue it is a fair trade, but there is also an argument that it isn't on balance a societal benefit to make that trade off. Saying "we need to target sex traffickers better" isn't an answer, because countries are already trying and failing to do that - what is the magic secret sauce we can invent as a policy to stop it when there isn't an example to follow? Saying "we need to prioritize worker rights" isn't convincing, because if overall exploitation increases you are increasing the scope of vulnerable people being exploited, and it isn't a good trade off for society.