7 ms·

I think you missed the point - we're talking about computers marketed as "Pro" devices which should be able to handle "Pro" workloads. 8GB on the Airs is a com

by pentae 3y ago

I think you missed the point - we're talking about computers marketed as "Pro" devices which should be able to handle "Pro" workloads. 8GB on the Airs is a completely different issue as these are not marketed as Pro devices. Consumers place a lot of faith in Apple as a brand so when they go and purchase a "Macbook Pro" they should be able to assume Apple has their back and it's actually going to do what it says on the tin. It's 2023, memory demand is higher than it ever has been and selling a "Pro" computer thats destined to be living on swap so they can try squeeze another $200 out of you is pretty shitty honestly. And it's not like you can just upgrade it, you have to toss it out and get a whole new device.

aurareturn 3y ago
I just used the MacBook Air as an example because even at 8GB, it’s still an amazing machine. I know the $1600 MBP with 8GB is strange. It shouldn’t exist. But it does so Apple opened itself up for ridicule.
ndiddy 3y ago
Agreed. IMO the only reason why the 8GB model exists is so Apple can advertise the Macbook Pro line with a starting price that has lower margins than they would otherwise make and then charge anyone who actually wants to use the computer for a professional workload an extra $200-400.
jrm4 3y ago
This from the company found liable for deliberately slowing their stuff, for all their proprietary dongles, for getting rid of the headphone jack, etc. etc. As much of a conversation killer calling people "sheep" can be, as someone who doesn't use their stuff, what is surprising about this?
gizmo 3y ago
"Pro" usage doesn't mean docker. There are many "pro" workloads that work just fine with 8gb ram. You can get a lot of real work done with an 8gb machine that has terrific battery life, is great for travel, great screen, etc. If you work on large C++/Rust projects you need dedicated build servers with ungodly amount of CPU/ram. A laptop cannot possibly compete with servers that draw 2000 watts each. Desktop PCs also blow laptops out of the water in terms of raw performance. And yet many professional developers have a MBP as their main device because apparently they don't need the extra performance a high end desktop delivers. Somehow many people here believe that: - an 8GB MBP is not pro - a 16GB MBP is pro - desktop with 1TB ram is unnecessary for pro use Somehow their preferred device is the "pro" device and should be called "pro" and less capable and more capable machines are irrelevant.
- pentae 3y ago
  Again it comes down to the fact that 8GB means you are almost guaranteed to be on swap. Does it work? Sure. But there is nothing ‘Pro’ about that, it wears out your drive faster and gives suboptimal performance
xw3090 3y ago
> computers marketed as "Pro" devices "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Which is the problem in a nutshell. No one knows what it means. The parent worked as a dev for a year with the machine and was happy with it. I am also a dev, and am still on a M1 8gb Air that I got in early 2021, and I'm very happy with it. Probably the best laptop I've ever had the pleasure to work on. For my workload, I don't think the difference between a 8gb and 16gb machine would be measurable. Some people really would prefer the $200.
- layer8 3y ago
  I think it’s pretty clear that Pro Max stands for profit maximization. ;)
- pentae 3y ago
  We can talk about what "Pro" doesn't mean - a compromised, crippled machine that has to use swap memory from day 1. https://youtu.be/hmWPd7uEYEY https://youtu.be/hmWPd7uEYEY So watch that and tell me again why you think the difference ‘isn’t measurable’. Tell me after watching that video you think the 8gb machine which is performing up to 5x worse than the 16gb model is "Pro" Imagine the reverse - if Apple had a new cpu that performed 5x better they would be screaming it from the rooftops. And yet they have absolutely no qualms selling a machine thats 5x worse performing on the base model compared to the $200 upgrade. They are basically scamming us and people like you are defending them for it. They need to be shamed and people like you need to stop defending the trillion dollar company doing it. It should be noted that I'm not saying they should sell the 16gb model for the 8gb price - I'm saying they shouldn't be selling 8gb in a pro model at all. Or at the very least, they need to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR to people buying these 8GB machines at the checkout page that they are far far worse performing than the 16GB machines and the SSD's will wear out quicker.
  - nickpp 3y ago
    In that video, it looks like the 8gb starts swapping when running blender and processing photos Lightroom?! Those are the very definition of tasks requiring a memory upgrade, IMHO. The 8gb model is meant for web browsing, communication, watching YouTube or Netflix and the such. Light computer work. Don’t get stuck on the Pro monitor, real Professionals simply buy more memory because they know they need it and they should be able to afford it. Apple offers the 8gb models for regular folk with light computing needs who like a nicer machine, be it called Air or Pro.
troseph 3y ago
I run a 3d printing business, design, manufacturing, CAD/CAM, designed my own marketing materials, website, etc etc from my 8G M2 Macbook Air, never once did I feel like I needed more RAM.
wilsonnb3 3y ago
People understand that Apple just uses Pro to mean “better than the not pro version”. We’ve had AirPods Pro and the iPhone Pro for years now, the days of the word pro meaning “for professionals” are long gone.
- NobleLie 3y ago
  In short, "plus"
matthewdgreen 3y ago
I wanted to download and local LLMs on my Macbook, but discovered that I just didn't have the RAM for this. Moreover I couldn't upgrade to handle the new use case, I'd need a whole new Macbook. But the cost of that new machine would be absurd. To be clear I have no problem paying the Apple tax, the computers are worth it. The problem is that Apple has optimized the Apple tax in such a way it makes local AI applications impossible, which is a shame because they have such the best architectures for that use case.

by pentae 3y ago

aurareturn 3y ago

I just used the MacBook Air as an example because even at 8GB, it’s still an amazing machine. I know the $1600 MBP with 8GB is strange. It shouldn’t exist. But it does so Apple opened itself up for ridicule.

ndiddy 3y ago

Agreed. IMO the only reason why the 8GB model exists is so Apple can advertise the Macbook Pro line with a starting price that has lower margins than they would otherwise make and then charge anyone who actually wants to use the computer for a professional workload an extra $200-400.

jrm4 3y ago

This from the company found liable for deliberately slowing their stuff, for all their proprietary dongles, for getting rid of the headphone jack, etc. etc. As much of a conversation killer calling people "sheep" can be, as someone who doesn't use their stuff, what is surprising about this?

gizmo 3y ago

"Pro" usage doesn't mean docker. There are many "pro" workloads that work just fine with 8gb ram. You can get a lot of real work done with an 8gb machine that has terrific battery life, is great for travel, great screen, etc. If you work on large C++/Rust projects you need dedicated build servers with ungodly amount of CPU/ram. A laptop cannot possibly compete with servers that draw 2000 watts each. Desktop PCs also blow laptops out of the water in terms of raw performance. And yet many professional developers have a MBP as their main device because apparently they don't need the extra performance a high end desktop delivers. Somehow many people here believe that: - an 8GB MBP is not pro - a 16GB MBP is pro - desktop with 1TB ram is unnecessary for pro use Somehow their preferred device is the "pro" device and should be called "pro" and less capable and more capable machines are irrelevant.

pentae 3y ago
Again it comes down to the fact that 8GB means you are almost guaranteed to be on swap. Does it work? Sure. But there is nothing ‘Pro’ about that, it wears out your drive faster and gives suboptimal performance

xw3090 3y ago

> computers marketed as "Pro" devices "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Which is the problem in a nutshell. No one knows what it means. The parent worked as a dev for a year with the machine and was happy with it. I am also a dev, and am still on a M1 8gb Air that I got in early 2021, and I'm very happy with it. Probably the best laptop I've ever had the pleasure to work on. For my workload, I don't think the difference between a 8gb and 16gb machine would be measurable. Some people really would prefer the $200.

layer8 3y ago
I think it’s pretty clear that Pro Max stands for profit maximization. ;)
pentae 3y ago
We can talk about what "Pro" doesn't mean - a compromised, crippled machine that has to use swap memory from day 1. https://youtu.be/hmWPd7uEYEY https://youtu.be/hmWPd7uEYEY So watch that and tell me again why you think the difference ‘isn’t measurable’. Tell me after watching that video you think the 8gb machine which is performing up to 5x worse than the 16gb model is "Pro" Imagine the reverse - if Apple had a new cpu that performed 5x better they would be screaming it from the rooftops. And yet they have absolutely no qualms selling a machine thats 5x worse performing on the base model compared to the $200 upgrade. They are basically scamming us and people like you are defending them for it. They need to be shamed and people like you need to stop defending the trillion dollar company doing it. It should be noted that I'm not saying they should sell the 16gb model for the 8gb price - I'm saying they shouldn't be selling 8gb in a pro model at all. Or at the very least, they need to make it CRYSTAL CLEAR to people buying these 8GB machines at the checkout page that they are far far worse performing than the 16GB machines and the SSD's will wear out quicker.
- nickpp 3y ago
  In that video, it looks like the 8gb starts swapping when running blender and processing photos Lightroom?! Those are the very definition of tasks requiring a memory upgrade, IMHO. The 8gb model is meant for web browsing, communication, watching YouTube or Netflix and the such. Light computer work. Don’t get stuck on the Pro monitor, real Professionals simply buy more memory because they know they need it and they should be able to afford it. Apple offers the 8gb models for regular folk with light computing needs who like a nicer machine, be it called Air or Pro.

troseph 3y ago

I run a 3d printing business, design, manufacturing, CAD/CAM, designed my own marketing materials, website, etc etc from my 8G M2 Macbook Air, never once did I feel like I needed more RAM.

wilsonnb3 3y ago

People understand that Apple just uses Pro to mean “better than the not pro version”. We’ve had AirPods Pro and the iPhone Pro for years now, the days of the word pro meaning “for professionals” are long gone.

NobleLie 3y ago
In short, "plus"

matthewdgreen 3y ago

I wanted to download and local LLMs on my Macbook, but discovered that I just didn't have the RAM for this. Moreover I couldn't upgrade to handle the new use case, I'd need a whole new Macbook. But the cost of that new machine would be absurd. To be clear I have no problem paying the Apple tax, the computers are worth it. The problem is that Apple has optimized the Apple tax in such a way it makes local AI applications impossible, which is a shame because they have such the best architectures for that use case.