6 ms·

This is why unlimited PTO is stupid. You have to get permission for ANY time off. Lame.

jejeyyy77 3y ago
Yep, unlimited PTO is a scam. But, to make lemonade, I make sure to take 4-5 weeks of PTO per year, EVERY year. That way, it's actually a perk/advantageous over traditional PTO packages.
- fnimick 3y ago
  How do you successfully advocate for that? These experiences blow my mind - I have managed to take 4-5 weeks of PTO, total, over the course of a decade in my career at "unlimited PTO" startups due to pretty much always being mission critical, and even those took some real pushing.
  - jgwil2 3y ago
    If you're mission-critical then your company has a bus factor of 1, so you probably should make sure that other people know how to fill in for you. Then you can take PTO and tell people to look at it as a training exercise just in case you do get hit by that bus (or, you know, quit because you're burned out).
  - bb88 3y ago
    To me it's a simple argument. PTO has to be negotiated upon job start. If you say you're going to take 5 weeks of PTO every year, and that was negotiated during the offer phase, well they can't then say you can't take it. Particularly if you want to take December off, say to wind down and go on some ski vacations. What companies with "unlimited PTO" really mean, is that it's negotiable -- primarily in their favor.
  - jejeyyy77 3y ago
    I just make sure to schedule the time off ahead of time during 1:1 with my managers. It is a part of my compensation package/job offer. Therefore I am entitled to it as much as I am entitled to my pay check.
mlhpdx 3y ago
Folks don’t ask me for permission for time off, they inform me. I ask if they’ve coordinated with their teammates, if that’s appropriate (sometimes it isn't, given a family event or the like, in which case managers and peers coordinate whatever is needed for the person to get leave with a clear conscience).
- fnimick 3y ago
  This is not my experience, having worked at "unlimited PTO" companies for my entire career. You end up with people on the team able to take radically different amounts of vacation depending on the current projects, who is engaged in the mission critical stuff, etc. The absolute worst position to be in is on a critical but non-visible infrastructure piece, where nobody outside the immediate team notices your impact, until it falls over and takes the entire business with it while it's offline. You end up without flashy deliveries to leverage as political capital to advocate for yourself, yet still with the downsides of having difficulty justifying time away due to business risk.
arcticbull 3y ago
It has its pros and cons, and it depends on your employer. Your employer generally has to approve PTO even on a PTO plan that tracks hours. If you don't trust your employer to honor a reasonable PTO policy - unlimited or otherwise - then you should get a new job because there's probably lots of other problems. I've been able to take blocks as long a 3 weeks off at an employer with an unlimited PTO policy, because I worked hard when I was there and my manager and I were on the same page. I told them when I was going and how long for, and they said nice, have fun. Etiquette was to give at least 2x as much notice as the duration of the PTO. If you're going to take 3 weeks off give at least 6 weeks notice.
- paulcole 3y ago
  > Your employer generally has to approve PTO even on a PTO plan that tracks hours They don't have to, they choose to. We track days of PTO where I work and there's no approval process. You take the days you want to take and that's that. It's the ideal way to do it IMO.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    > They don't have to, they choose to. What I meant was that the employer has a policy where your manager or some other authority has to approve the PTO. To your point this is a choice.
marssaxman 3y ago
That's not been my experience, unless by "get permission" you mean "provide notification". I simply tell my manager when I'm going to be gone; the longer I'm going to be gone, the further in advance I let him know. That's it. I don't have to nickel-and-dime myself with PTO hours or keep track of them at all. I strongly prefer unlimited PTO to the traditional model.

Yep, unlimited PTO is a scam. But, to make lemonade, I make sure to take 4-5 weeks of PTO per year, EVERY year. That way, it's actually a perk/advantageous over traditional PTO packages.

fnimick 3y ago
How do you successfully advocate for that? These experiences blow my mind - I have managed to take 4-5 weeks of PTO, total, over the course of a decade in my career at "unlimited PTO" startups due to pretty much always being mission critical, and even those took some real pushing.
- jgwil2 3y ago
  If you're mission-critical then your company has a bus factor of 1, so you probably should make sure that other people know how to fill in for you. Then you can take PTO and tell people to look at it as a training exercise just in case you do get hit by that bus (or, you know, quit because you're burned out).
- bb88 3y ago
  To me it's a simple argument. PTO has to be negotiated upon job start. If you say you're going to take 5 weeks of PTO every year, and that was negotiated during the offer phase, well they can't then say you can't take it. Particularly if you want to take December off, say to wind down and go on some ski vacations. What companies with "unlimited PTO" really mean, is that it's negotiable -- primarily in their favor.
- jejeyyy77 3y ago
  I just make sure to schedule the time off ahead of time during 1:1 with my managers. It is a part of my compensation package/job offer. Therefore I am entitled to it as much as I am entitled to my pay check.

mlhpdx 3y ago

Folks don’t ask me for permission for time off, they inform me. I ask if they’ve coordinated with their teammates, if that’s appropriate (sometimes it isn't, given a family event or the like, in which case managers and peers coordinate whatever is needed for the person to get leave with a clear conscience).

fnimick 3y ago
This is not my experience, having worked at "unlimited PTO" companies for my entire career. You end up with people on the team able to take radically different amounts of vacation depending on the current projects, who is engaged in the mission critical stuff, etc. The absolute worst position to be in is on a critical but non-visible infrastructure piece, where nobody outside the immediate team notices your impact, until it falls over and takes the entire business with it while it's offline. You end up without flashy deliveries to leverage as political capital to advocate for yourself, yet still with the downsides of having difficulty justifying time away due to business risk.

arcticbull 3y ago

It has its pros and cons, and it depends on your employer. Your employer generally has to approve PTO even on a PTO plan that tracks hours. If you don't trust your employer to honor a reasonable PTO policy - unlimited or otherwise - then you should get a new job because there's probably lots of other problems. I've been able to take blocks as long a 3 weeks off at an employer with an unlimited PTO policy, because I worked hard when I was there and my manager and I were on the same page. I told them when I was going and how long for, and they said nice, have fun. Etiquette was to give at least 2x as much notice as the duration of the PTO. If you're going to take 3 weeks off give at least 6 weeks notice.

paulcole 3y ago
> Your employer generally has to approve PTO even on a PTO plan that tracks hours They don't have to, they choose to. We track days of PTO where I work and there's no approval process. You take the days you want to take and that's that. It's the ideal way to do it IMO.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- arcticbull 3y ago
  > They don't have to, they choose to. What I meant was that the employer has a policy where your manager or some other authority has to approve the PTO. To your point this is a choice.

marssaxman 3y ago

That's not been my experience, unless by "get permission" you mean "provide notification". I simply tell my manager when I'm going to be gone; the longer I'm going to be gone, the further in advance I let him know. That's it. I don't have to nickel-and-dime myself with PTO hours or keep track of them at all. I strongly prefer unlimited PTO to the traditional model.