4 ms·

There are a couple of things to consider. 1) Women don't need men in modern society. They would likely stay married longer and be more picky about the type of

There are a couple of things to consider. 1) Women don't need men in modern society. They would likely stay married longer and be more picky about the type of man to bread with if they were stuck with him forever. The benefit is that women don't get stuck in abusive relationships. 2) Modern dating is turning us into polygamists. Women will pursue the top 10% (or so) of men and those men have little incentive to get married. There is a financial penalty to having children, but much less than getting married and having children. Of course this leads to single mothers with, at best, part time fathers.

yowlingcat 3y ago
This is an oft repeated trope that flies in the face of evolutionary history [1]. Because it doesn't actually work, I think that it reflects socioeconomic class demarcations -- that is, the upper class and the lower classes take different strategies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory
- mgamache 3y ago
  My hypothesis is supported by dating and sex data. And no it doesn't work at scale or for very long, but it is a driver of mate selection.
  - drjasonharrison 3y ago
    Peer reviewed citations or we'll assume that your data is anecdotal. And skewed from a sub-population that is interested in data and sex rather than mating and marriage. The platforms that provide matches aren't very motivated to find perfect matches that lead to marriages. They haven't yet expanded into the marriage industry. Women raising children alone may be due to a large number of factors and grouping them into "women don't need men, they just need sperm" is missing the support (sometimes) available from their male partner.
    - mgamache 3y ago
      I need peer reviewed data to suggest that women want to seek the best mate possible? In the modern context 'the best' doesn't include as much weight on providing food and shelter.
WD40forRust 3y ago
Because of (2): I am less 'patriotic' and will put myself above "my nation" because of what online dating has shown regarding male attraction. I have no skin in this game in any way that would have me contributing to society; and, from twenty years of experience being told repeatedly I am not good enough, I will act completely selfishly. It is my duty, and the duties of other "leftover men" like me, to minimize any sort of sense of civic duty, contribution, and taxation, and to keep an eye out for a much better deal (even if it's in a foreign country). We must not let The State turn us into cucks: let the nation of single mothers sink or swim on its own without us!
- mgamache 3y ago
  This is exactly why a marriage norm exists. You can't have large societies with a Signiant number of men not invested in it's future. They tend to find destructive ways to use their energy.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  They can downvote you but I don't think they can explain why you're wrong.
- drjasonharrison 3y ago
  Wow. While women may not "need" men, men live longer when they are in a healthy long term relationship. Typically this is heterosexual marriage, but if you can find a buddy who will do the stuff that a wife will do when your body decays, good for you. My mom outlived my father by a few years. My grandmothers both outlived their husbands. This is well known pattern. "men going their own way" may lead to more lonely, sick, unhappy men.
63 3y ago
These points are laid out as if they're clearly true but I'm not sure that's the case. It reduces people to rational actors and assumes they're all optimizing for certain conditions but both of those assumptions are clearly false to me. In any case, I'd like to hear all this talk about women from the perspective of a woman.
- randomdata 3y ago
  It is clearly stated that the points are something to consider, not the they are strictly true. Is there something of value that you are trying to add here?
  - 63 3y ago
    Mostly it's meant as a reminder to anyone reading the parent comment to think critically instead of just taking the claims at face value, as I often tend to forget to do that myself.
johnnyanmac 3y ago
1) a big benefit is still either a) the option to have a full time parent or 2) the option to have double income. Both are becoming less and less of an option as housing prices go out of control in the U.S. (the subject of this article's sources) it doesn't necessarily mean women need men, but people in general are starting to require some partner or otherwise roomate to make ends meet. with the context of a kid, that overwhelmingly implies a partner. 2) if only. it's more like casual sex in general is more popular. Not necessarily a bad thing, but if less people are meeting romantically and are getting their sexual gratification casually, you see how this can lead to less stable relationships (if they form at all). even in an unofficial capacity, polygamy may be able to solve quite a few problems. But I'm not sure if that sentiment will shift in my lifetime, at least in the U.S.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
codeTired 3y ago
You’ve got some stats for this? People are still getting married. The divorce rates are not 100%. Your post seems a bit out of touch with reality imo. It’s a very “internet” opinion, which according to statistics is not true.
- mgamache 3y ago
  Yes people are getting married still, but it's a trend that you can see in dating apps and sex stats https://qz.com/1051462/these-statistics-show-why-its-so-hard-to-be-an-average-man-on-dating-apps https://qz.com/1051462/these-statistics-show-why-its-so-hard...

yowlingcat 3y ago

This is an oft repeated trope that flies in the face of evolutionary history [1]. Because it doesn't actually work, I think that it reflects socioeconomic class demarcations -- that is, the upper class and the lower classes take different strategies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R/K_selection_theory

mgamache 3y ago
My hypothesis is supported by dating and sex data. And no it doesn't work at scale or for very long, but it is a driver of mate selection.
- drjasonharrison 3y ago
  Peer reviewed citations or we'll assume that your data is anecdotal. And skewed from a sub-population that is interested in data and sex rather than mating and marriage. The platforms that provide matches aren't very motivated to find perfect matches that lead to marriages. They haven't yet expanded into the marriage industry. Women raising children alone may be due to a large number of factors and grouping them into "women don't need men, they just need sperm" is missing the support (sometimes) available from their male partner.
  - mgamache 3y ago
    I need peer reviewed data to suggest that women want to seek the best mate possible? In the modern context 'the best' doesn't include as much weight on providing food and shelter.

WD40forRust 3y ago

Because of (2): I am less 'patriotic' and will put myself above "my nation" because of what online dating has shown regarding male attraction. I have no skin in this game in any way that would have me contributing to society; and, from twenty years of experience being told repeatedly I am not good enough, I will act completely selfishly. It is my duty, and the duties of other "leftover men" like me, to minimize any sort of sense of civic duty, contribution, and taxation, and to keep an eye out for a much better deal (even if it's in a foreign country). We must not let The State turn us into cucks: let the nation of single mothers sink or swim on its own without us!

mgamache 3y ago
This is exactly why a marriage norm exists. You can't have large societies with a Signiant number of men not invested in it's future. They tend to find destructive ways to use their energy.
mcpackieh 3y ago
They can downvote you but I don't think they can explain why you're wrong.
drjasonharrison 3y ago
Wow. While women may not "need" men, men live longer when they are in a healthy long term relationship. Typically this is heterosexual marriage, but if you can find a buddy who will do the stuff that a wife will do when your body decays, good for you. My mom outlived my father by a few years. My grandmothers both outlived their husbands. This is well known pattern. "men going their own way" may lead to more lonely, sick, unhappy men.

63 3y ago

These points are laid out as if they're clearly true but I'm not sure that's the case. It reduces people to rational actors and assumes they're all optimizing for certain conditions but both of those assumptions are clearly false to me. In any case, I'd like to hear all this talk about women from the perspective of a woman.

randomdata 3y ago
It is clearly stated that the points are something to consider, not the they are strictly true. Is there something of value that you are trying to add here?
- 63 3y ago
  Mostly it's meant as a reminder to anyone reading the parent comment to think critically instead of just taking the claims at face value, as I often tend to forget to do that myself.

johnnyanmac 3y ago

1) a big benefit is still either a) the option to have a full time parent or 2) the option to have double income. Both are becoming less and less of an option as housing prices go out of control in the U.S. (the subject of this article's sources) it doesn't necessarily mean women need men, but people in general are starting to require some partner or otherwise roomate to make ends meet. with the context of a kid, that overwhelmingly implies a partner. 2) if only. it's more like casual sex in general is more popular. Not necessarily a bad thing, but if less people are meeting romantically and are getting their sexual gratification casually, you see how this can lead to less stable relationships (if they form at all). even in an unofficial capacity, polygamy may be able to solve quite a few problems. But I'm not sure if that sentiment will shift in my lifetime, at least in the U.S.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

codeTired 3y ago

You’ve got some stats for this? People are still getting married. The divorce rates are not 100%. Your post seems a bit out of touch with reality imo. It’s a very “internet” opinion, which according to statistics is not true.

mgamache 3y ago
Yes people are getting married still, but it's a trend that you can see in dating apps and sex stats https://qz.com/1051462/these-statistics-show-why-its-so-hard-to-be-an-average-man-on-dating-apps https://qz.com/1051462/these-statistics-show-why-its-so-hard...