6 ms·

Can’t you ban an app based on purpose, “they’re using the app to spy on us”, and then case law applies it on an app by app basis?

by ejlxsh 3y ago

diogenes4 3y ago
Surely this would mostly apply to non-chinese companies, no? This would wipe the market out.
- ac54321 3y ago
  OK. How about “they’re using the app to spy on us for a Foreign Hostile Government”
  - colordrops 3y ago
    Is "Foreign Hostile Government" an official legal distinction? I thought the US was still on good terms with China as a trade partner.
    - cjbgkagh 3y ago
      It’s a weird duality with import taxes acting as a middle ground. It seems the belief that a conflict with China is inevitable is becoming more pervasive. So much of the US economy relies on reselling Chinese goods that to stop trading completely would be calamitous. I think the idea is to keep trading right up until the war starts. I’ve already stocked up on goods and materials that are only available from China as I include myself as one of those who believe a great power conflict is coming.
      - colordrops 3y ago
        Which goods in particular are you stocking up on?
        cjbgkagh 3y ago
        I do small scale manufacturing as a hobby which covers quite a gamut of fields from woodworking, machining, electronics, chemistry etc. So a huge amount of tools and industrial consumables. A lot of electronics modules. Basically anything I think I might need I buy and store. My plan for war breaking out is to stay home and do engineering work.
      - diogenes4 3y ago
        > It seems the belief that a conflict with China is inevitable is becoming more pervasive. An actual kinetic conflict would result in a complete destruction of the world economy and WWIII. You can't take these people seriously without carefully examining their motivations (certainly most notably, to build up the capacity of our own military).
        cjbgkagh 3y ago
        They don’t start that way, they start as regional conflicts and grow. ‘How could we not help the poor so and sos that we’ve signed some tangling alliance with…’
    - kube-system 3y ago
      "Foreign Adversary" is, and the US considers China to be one. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subpart-A/section-7.4 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subp...
  - whatshisface 3y ago
    Given the Snowden revelations any kind of reciprocity in the international community regarding that principle would make basically all US tech companies US-market only...
  - dtjb 3y ago
    KSA used Pegasus to spy on and murder an american journalist. They're also a major shareholder of twitter.
    - ac54321 3y ago
      I’m not really sure what the legal status of Pegasus is. Also, I doubt it’s on 150 million American’s phones, though who knows. I don’t believe TikTok and Pegasus belong in the same category. Regarding Twitter, only Elon can answer how much of American’s Twitter data is flowing through KSA, though I believe it’s zero. Edit: I’m fully behind any moves to ban Pegasus.
  - diogenes4 3y ago
    So long as this is equally applied to a domestic hostile government I'm fine with that.
- digging 3y ago
  If only!
TheRealPomax 3y ago
What purpose, though? Because if the purpose is "you're not allowed to spy", you can't ban software until you prove they're spying. And the US already has multiple laws that cover that problem, with courts being entirely allowed to rule that a product must be taken off the US market, be that a physical product or software. This is congress trying to ban a named product by bypassing the courts, in order not to have to bother with the whole "burden of proof" thing, rather than the justice department bringing a case to the courts to get existing laws enforced. And yes, technically it's "congress makes the laws, the courts enforce those laws", but congress is bound by the constitution, and if congress singles out a specific individual or company, that's (amazingly, because it almost never is) an actual first amendment violation. Whereas taking a company to court in order to get it banned for "spying on behalf of a foreign nation" is not.
- kube-system 3y ago
  > until you prove they're spying. Not that I agree with the premise above, but: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-bytedance-workers-fired-data-access-journalists https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-by...
  - TheRealPomax 3y ago
    I'd rather you expound what what part you don't agree with, because what that link tells us is that the DoJ didn't consider that severe enough to push for a ban on the product.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      It doesn't surprise me that they don't care, setting policy for forward looking national security matters isn't their job. The part I disagree with is the idea that "they're using the app to spy on us" is a benchmark that some in the government care about, or a reasonable benchmark at that. On this topic there are often people asking for evidence that TikTok has done anything wrong, but that's really besides the whole point. Governance can be an issue whether or not someone has abused a power. Past performance is not the be-all and end-all of security; means and motivations are also something to consider.

Can’t you ban an app based on purpose, “they’re using the app to spy on us”, and then case law applies it on an app by app basis?

by ejlxsh 3y ago

Can’t you ban an app based on purpose, “they’re using the app to spy on us”, and then case law applies it on an app by app basis?

diogenes4 3y ago

Surely this would mostly apply to non-chinese companies, no? This would wipe the market out.

ac54321 3y ago
OK. How about “they’re using the app to spy on us for a Foreign Hostile Government”
- colordrops 3y ago
  Is "Foreign Hostile Government" an official legal distinction? I thought the US was still on good terms with China as a trade partner.
  - cjbgkagh 3y ago
    It’s a weird duality with import taxes acting as a middle ground. It seems the belief that a conflict with China is inevitable is becoming more pervasive. So much of the US economy relies on reselling Chinese goods that to stop trading completely would be calamitous. I think the idea is to keep trading right up until the war starts. I’ve already stocked up on goods and materials that are only available from China as I include myself as one of those who believe a great power conflict is coming.
    - colordrops 3y ago
      Which goods in particular are you stocking up on?
      - cjbgkagh 3y ago
        I do small scale manufacturing as a hobby which covers quite a gamut of fields from woodworking, machining, electronics, chemistry etc. So a huge amount of tools and industrial consumables. A lot of electronics modules. Basically anything I think I might need I buy and store. My plan for war breaking out is to stay home and do engineering work.
    - diogenes4 3y ago
      > It seems the belief that a conflict with China is inevitable is becoming more pervasive. An actual kinetic conflict would result in a complete destruction of the world economy and WWIII. You can't take these people seriously without carefully examining their motivations (certainly most notably, to build up the capacity of our own military).
      - cjbgkagh 3y ago
        They don’t start that way, they start as regional conflicts and grow. ‘How could we not help the poor so and sos that we’ve signed some tangling alliance with…’
  - kube-system 3y ago
    "Foreign Adversary" is, and the US considers China to be one. https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subpart-A/section-7.4 https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-15/subtitle-A/part-7/subp...
- whatshisface 3y ago
  Given the Snowden revelations any kind of reciprocity in the international community regarding that principle would make basically all US tech companies US-market only...
- dtjb 3y ago
  KSA used Pegasus to spy on and murder an american journalist. They're also a major shareholder of twitter.
  - ac54321 3y ago
    I’m not really sure what the legal status of Pegasus is. Also, I doubt it’s on 150 million American’s phones, though who knows. I don’t believe TikTok and Pegasus belong in the same category. Regarding Twitter, only Elon can answer how much of American’s Twitter data is flowing through KSA, though I believe it’s zero. Edit: I’m fully behind any moves to ban Pegasus.
- diogenes4 3y ago
  So long as this is equally applied to a domestic hostile government I'm fine with that.
digging 3y ago
If only!

TheRealPomax 3y ago

What purpose, though? Because if the purpose is "you're not allowed to spy", you can't ban software until you prove they're spying. And the US already has multiple laws that cover that problem, with courts being entirely allowed to rule that a product must be taken off the US market, be that a physical product or software. This is congress trying to ban a named product by bypassing the courts, in order not to have to bother with the whole "burden of proof" thing, rather than the justice department bringing a case to the courts to get existing laws enforced. And yes, technically it's "congress makes the laws, the courts enforce those laws", but congress is bound by the constitution, and if congress singles out a specific individual or company, that's (amazingly, because it almost never is) an actual first amendment violation. Whereas taking a company to court in order to get it banned for "spying on behalf of a foreign nation" is not.

kube-system 3y ago
> until you prove they're spying. Not that I agree with the premise above, but: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-bytedance-workers-fired-data-access-journalists https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2022/dec/22/tiktok-by...
- TheRealPomax 3y ago
  I'd rather you expound what what part you don't agree with, because what that link tells us is that the DoJ didn't consider that severe enough to push for a ban on the product.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    It doesn't surprise me that they don't care, setting policy for forward looking national security matters isn't their job. The part I disagree with is the idea that "they're using the app to spy on us" is a benchmark that some in the government care about, or a reasonable benchmark at that. On this topic there are often people asking for evidence that TikTok has done anything wrong, but that's really besides the whole point. Governance can be an issue whether or not someone has abused a power. Past performance is not the be-all and end-all of security; means and motivations are also something to consider.