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There was a note on Reddit that the ports / expansion cards were in the wrong way to maximize power efficiency. USB c in back two, USB a in the front. Link to

There was a note on Reddit that the ports / expansion cards were in the wrong way to maximize power efficiency. USB c in back two, USB a in the front. Link to official comment https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/16ytxjd/comment/k3ar79v/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3 https://www.reddit.com/r/framework/comments/16ytxjd/comment/... Direct to knowledge base https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/expansion-card-functionality-on-framework-laptop-13-amd-ryzen-7040-series-SkrVx7gAh https://knowledgebase.frame.work/en_us/expansion-card-functi...

invalidator 3y ago
That's an interesting quirk! I thought they were all just USB-C ports internally. Do you know why this matters?
- soulnothing 3y ago
  Updated parent comment with links. The back 2 are USB 4 while the front are usb 3.2 is one thing. Last I read, the USB a cards don't fully enter suspend in the os. I have an 11th gen and I pop out my USB a to save battery when I don't need it. The hdmi also used to have that problem but that's since been fixed.
- mananaysiempre 3y ago
  They are all USB-C as far as the physical interface goes, but their protocol capabilities are different: the rear ones are USB4 (actually full TB4 AFAIU, except Intel refuses to certify AMD systems), the front ones are USB3.2+DP and USB3.2. The fundamental reason seems to be that a “mobile CPU” is more of a SoC, including built-in USB capability, and (unlike the Intels) the AMD ones only do two USB4 ports, which on the Framework are routed to the rear. This, then, is done through USB4-capable retimers, which turned out to draw noticeable power when a USB-A card with a pulldown is connected and idling; but no better retimers could be substituted. The front USB3.2 ports use different retimers and don’t suffer from this. (Why do the Intel motherboards not have this problem? No idea, but if I had to guess, Intel probably makes the retimers for those and is refusing to let them be used with AMD processors.)
  - jychang 3y ago
    That’s pretty cool information. Also this is the type of stuff where Apple would make sure the end user would not have to worry about it. Charitably, they’d put in the money/effort to make sure all 4 USB ports are the same (notably, all USB ports on a macbook pro can charge at 100W, which is not a trivial task); or uncharitably, they’d just say fuck it and ship a laptop with only 2 USB ports.
    - mananaysiempre 3y ago
      I mean, yes, Apple (even before they get to making their own silicon) can slam a wad of cash on the table and say “make us a better retimer or else” or perhaps even “make us a better SoC or else”. Not a lot of other laptop manufacturers can. (Now that I’m looking, it seems that Intel and Kandou are basically it when it comes to USB4 retimers, and the Kandou ones—whose deficiencies we’re discussing here—only recently arrived on the market.) That said, I believe all Frameworks will accept 100W down any of the four ports, even if the batteries are only designed to charge at 55 or 61W[1] and the rest will have to be consumed by the rest of the system somehow. [1] https://community.frame.work/t/how-fast-can-the-battery-be-charged/34196/10 https://community.frame.work/t/how-fast-can-the-battery-be-c...
      - Aaron2222 3y ago
        > and the rest will have to be consumed by the rest of the system somehow The wattage figures on a charger are the maximum it can provide. The connected device only draws what it needs.
        mananaysiempre 3y ago
        Of course. I just wanted to be clear that Framework laptops have 100W-rated power circuitry that works through any of the four ports, yet it would not be entirely correct to say that they “charge at 100W”: the batteries charge at 1C, that is capacity/1h; any power over that only counts towards powering the running system.
    - 3y ago

invalidator 3y ago

That's an interesting quirk! I thought they were all just USB-C ports internally. Do you know why this matters?

soulnothing 3y ago
Updated parent comment with links. The back 2 are USB 4 while the front are usb 3.2 is one thing. Last I read, the USB a cards don't fully enter suspend in the os. I have an 11th gen and I pop out my USB a to save battery when I don't need it. The hdmi also used to have that problem but that's since been fixed.
mananaysiempre 3y ago
They are all USB-C as far as the physical interface goes, but their protocol capabilities are different: the rear ones are USB4 (actually full TB4 AFAIU, except Intel refuses to certify AMD systems), the front ones are USB3.2+DP and USB3.2. The fundamental reason seems to be that a “mobile CPU” is more of a SoC, including built-in USB capability, and (unlike the Intels) the AMD ones only do two USB4 ports, which on the Framework are routed to the rear. This, then, is done through USB4-capable retimers, which turned out to draw noticeable power when a USB-A card with a pulldown is connected and idling; but no better retimers could be substituted. The front USB3.2 ports use different retimers and don’t suffer from this. (Why do the Intel motherboards not have this problem? No idea, but if I had to guess, Intel probably makes the retimers for those and is refusing to let them be used with AMD processors.)
- jychang 3y ago
  That’s pretty cool information. Also this is the type of stuff where Apple would make sure the end user would not have to worry about it. Charitably, they’d put in the money/effort to make sure all 4 USB ports are the same (notably, all USB ports on a macbook pro can charge at 100W, which is not a trivial task); or uncharitably, they’d just say fuck it and ship a laptop with only 2 USB ports.
  - mananaysiempre 3y ago
    I mean, yes, Apple (even before they get to making their own silicon) can slam a wad of cash on the table and say “make us a better retimer or else” or perhaps even “make us a better SoC or else”. Not a lot of other laptop manufacturers can. (Now that I’m looking, it seems that Intel and Kandou are basically it when it comes to USB4 retimers, and the Kandou ones—whose deficiencies we’re discussing here—only recently arrived on the market.) That said, I believe all Frameworks will accept 100W down any of the four ports, even if the batteries are only designed to charge at 55 or 61W[1] and the rest will have to be consumed by the rest of the system somehow. [1] https://community.frame.work/t/how-fast-can-the-battery-be-charged/34196/10 https://community.frame.work/t/how-fast-can-the-battery-be-c...
    - Aaron2222 3y ago
      > and the rest will have to be consumed by the rest of the system somehow The wattage figures on a charger are the maximum it can provide. The connected device only draws what it needs.
      - mananaysiempre 3y ago
        Of course. I just wanted to be clear that Framework laptops have 100W-rated power circuitry that works through any of the four ports, yet it would not be entirely correct to say that they “charge at 100W”: the batteries charge at 1C, that is capacity/1h; any power over that only counts towards powering the running system.
  - 3y ago