8 ms·

Ask HN: Which role in software engineering is the best for average person?

7 points by throwaway1183 3y ago

In your opinion, which role is the best to be average at? From compensation, work/life balance, fulfillment, career opportunities, etc? 1. Frontend Engineer 2. Backend Engineer 3. Applied Research Engineer 4. Research Engineer 5. Graphics Engineer 6. Game developer 7. Enterprise SE 8. Fintech Engineer (esp. in trading/algos) 9. Cloud Engineer 10. DevOps 11. System Engineer (compiler, os, browser) 12. Consumer Application Engineer (macos/linux/windows) 13. Machine Learning Engineer 14. Data Engineer It’s always good to be best. I got told best ML engineer would earn a lot compared to best Frontend Engineer. (ofc, it might be wrong). But which role is good to be average at? It would also be awesome to know barrier of entry vs reward. For example entering graphics engineering is extremely hard and reward is also average compared to average frontend roles. Once the profile is built up, the former will be a great deal because the investment pays off! So, what are your opinions? Any idea?

billy99k 3y ago
[flagged]
VirusNewbie 3y ago
Probably whatever sounds most interesting, honestly. They all have a pretty high ceiling and they are all challenging to some degree.
- throwaway1183 3y ago
  And there is chances of being automated out. Since I will just be the bottom fodder. Everything I use, read and learn has been already made by someone. I have never once truly made anything "original". The feeling after making things sucks a lot. The process of making it is a joy. But it doesn't give me any money simply by stealing information for others. I am getting nowhere. No jobs. Feels really bad to know that I came so far, just to realize this small fact. I have already invested a lot in the field to even change it now. The worst, I don't have confidence to ask others to pay me even if I do the job. However I need the money to live. It's such a weird situation.
throwaway1183 3y ago
For clarification: The rat-race is tiring. I have given up on it even before starting. The hardest thing in life is giving up. It took a long self talk to reach an agreement where I am truly an average in what I do. There are so many people out there, who can do marvelous things. Meanwhile I am just an average dude trying to make a comfortable life. I want to minimize my effort and maximize the reward. This is the motivation of asking this question. Not everyone can be good at things, there are so many factors. I sometimes think I should have studied medicine because an average doctor has it better than an average engineer. It was foolish of me to follow a dream that was never supposed to be made for me.
quickthrower2 3y ago
Back end and devops probably give the best combo of pay and work life balance. Front end had you chasing frameworks. Front end for you own projects is OK but for a company get ready to learn the latest React nonsense while supporting Angular, JQuery Plugins and everything else that was in vogue over the life of your codebase. Unless you join a disciplined team that doesn’t chase fads or rewrites everything each time. Game dev is famous for bad work life balance. Not sure about pay? Working for Roblox is probably decent? The best paid will be FAANG (USA only) or Fintech esp. Trading. For career development if I had time again I might go more into sales engineer, with the option to into pure sales or start a business with the help of all those friends you made! Or be a business analyst for a year or two. Inside the Engineering wheelhouse it feels CTO is the real career progression and if you don’t want to be on that path it is harder to find career opportunities.
- throwaway1183 3y ago
  So it likes transition into a business roles or try to be CEO. My question, is there no way to be eternally stuck as "senior/staff engineer". I do not want anything beyond that. The salary of an average senior/staff engineer is always greater than median salary of the country. That should solve all the living expenses.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    You can if course stay at that level forever. Living expenses may or may not be constant. If you have a family expect them to increase alot while having less time to keep up with tech.
    - throwaway1183 3y ago
      Oh no, I thought the salary would be adjusted for inflation. Are there no social safety nets? This is really sad to know that salary isn't adjusted for living expenses!
- ttymck 3y ago
  In my opinion, the reasons you say frontend is bad, are actually the reasons why frontend is a good choice. And why I do not enjoy working on frontend. Frontend devs get to waste so much time chasing frameworks and fads, and never seem to be held accountable for a functional product that works well. Form state and error handling are afterthoughts compared to animations and drop shadows.
icedchai 3y ago
Do you really want to be "average" at your job? What do you really want to do? I've worked with barely average developers and believe me, they frustrate the rest of the team. They'll copy-and-paste the same code 5x instead of asking where they should put a new module. They'll commit untested code into main, and leave it to the next guy to clean it up, just so they can close their ticket. Communication is often poor. We all don't know things. The problem with "average" is they don't ask questions.
- throwaway1183 3y ago
  Yeah, totally. At least I would try to communicate on important decisions. However, I have zero interest in making decisions, making presentation, trying to prove things or any of that. All I want is a task that is achievable in given allocated time and fits my skill level. I have given up on hopes of learning. There is no such thing as learning after highschool. It's always one thing after another. College is chasing grades. Post graduate chasing papers. Never got a true chance to dive and learn. There is no room for failure. All I had to do was put of patch work to clear the subjects. How can I expect myself to be good when I have cheated the system throughout my life. Hence, if I get the chance, I would love to be average. No responsibility. Slightly better pay. I feel I can study what interest me just to crush my own ego. Hope it makes sense.
  - icedchai 3y ago
    It sounds like you just want to get paid and go home. I'm not going to judge, but I think you need to focus on specific industries, not job titles. All the roles you list can be quite demanding. Look for a non-tech, older company where they are set in their ways and have to deal with a ton of regulations. Think banks, insurance, defense, government.
    - throwaway1183 3y ago
      Oh!! Thank you!! These are the answers I am looking for because these never crossed my thoughts. These are boring and no one likes them! Exactly my taste.
mattbrewsbytes 3y ago
I think there should be an innate quality about someone in software that they enjoy the work. If it didn’t pay well I’d still be doing this, I love working with computers and started before google came about. If people are in it for the money and don’t enjoy the work they will likely not do well, not excel at anything, not be curious about learning and just plod along to get by. As much as you don’t need a degree to do software its not a skilled trade like an electrician where the job details are very structured around proven solutions. All that being said, I think someone is better off looking at organization styles and culture than job titles for a comfortable, earn your keep, engineering job.
- throwaway1183 3y ago
  Okay! This makes sense. Culture is important! However, I kindly request you to not conclude that wanting to be average doesn't mean not having interest in the field. It's the contrary. I am so invested, I know what mind blogging things people can do. And I also know I will never be able to reach where these people are. Hence, I want to understand a way to find the balance. It's okay to be curious and learning. Also the fact life isn't fair for everyone. For some it comes easy, for some it may take lifetime.
notsurenymore 3y ago
Enterprise software in a large non tech business. Being above average won’t really help you there as the bureaucracy will choke and discard your skills, but you can get away with being average and have a pretty chill job.
- throwaway1183 3y ago
  Thanks for letting me know!
atomicnature 3y ago
Whichever position that doesn't let you remain an average person for long :)

Exuma 3y ago

Talk about a loser mentality. Stay far away from my companies … barf

throwaway1183 3y ago
wow, what is wrong with being average and trying to enjoy life? I am pretty sure you have zero contribution to llvm, pytorch, react, vue, js, c, python, linux, or heck even the device you are typing. You also fall on same average category. If you had any idea, you would have written something about it. The talent at top are polite enough to see the difference. Your arrogance reminds me of some egoist friend.
- jstx1 3y ago
  This isn't average: > I have given up on hopes of learning. There is no such thing as learning after highschool. This is refusing to learn at an industry where continually learning is one of the most important things you need to do. You're actively choosing to be bad at your job.
  - throwaway1183 3y ago
    I don't know how to argue on that. Learning is a slow process that takes time and effort. The results aren't visible immediately. Meanwhile industry wants to get the job done and be over with it. We are hired to work. I don't want to go home and learn more about the things so that I can do the job better. There is literally no incentive in doing it better than just doing it alright. I would rather learn things from diverse topics and interests that will benefit that I can enjoy in the long run.
    - icedchai 3y ago
      Learning is part of the job. Finding information on technical topics is soooo much easier today than it was 20 or 30 years ago! Watch youtube, download an ebook, look at somebody's blog. When I as a young teenager, learning about programming in the early 90's, I had to convince my parents to order physical books that would take weeks to arrive.
      - throwaway1183 3y ago
        > Learning is part of the job. I don't know what to say. For example, I recently designed some webpage or made some prototype app using X framework in Y language. Do you consider that I learnt something? I don't know, I feel like that isn't learning. I just made the thing work because I read some stuff, processed information and did some hit and trial. Compared that to something like "ah hah!" moments; those are extremely rare at work. It only happens at debugging. The reason why I am stating it is because I have forgotten a lot of these things. What stuck with me are the basics and foundations and it took years to be reinforced. I doubt you will find a job where you get to learn in a proper way.
        icedchai 3y ago
        Yes, I would consider that learning something! You figured some things out after reading stuff. Presumably, some of that information was retained and will help you in the future. Maybe you don't remember all of it, or even most of it, but if you see the same pattern again, hopefully you'll know where to look. I run into "average" developers who won't even look for an answer. They don't realize their problem has probably been solved many, many times before. They'll attempt to reinvent the wheel instead of using a proven solution like an existing library. They'll literally stare at an error message, not paste it into Google, then tell the team they're "blocked" a couple days later. How about asking someone? What is the "proper way" of learning to you? Do you want to be taught in a classroom?
        throwaway1183 3y ago
        > They don't realize their problem has probably been solved many, many times before. They'll attempt to reinvent the wheel instead of using a proven solution like an existing library. They'll literally stare at an error message, not paste it into Google, then tell the team they're "blocked" a couple days later That just sucks. And that is the average? I have really skewed view of average then! Because I think of myself as average and I don't do any of those stuffs. I am actively seeking solutions and methods. If I had to write from scratch, I would only do when there is hard requirement and a proper reference exists. Without proper reference it would be a nightmare! > What is the "proper way" of learning to you? Do you want to be taught in a classroom? I never believed in learning at the classroom. It never worked for me as I got bored and tired. Sometimes when I was stuck, classroom helped but most of the time I couldn't focus. For me proper learning requires immersion and building intuition. There is factual learning where I just take facts for granted. Then there is building intuition and understanding why the facts are like so. If I can follow these patterns, I reach a state where I will have solid high level intuition of a topic and I call myself to be learned. Once I am at that stage, I can create and think of new ideas/triggers ultimately allowing me to see patterns of possibilities. When I don't reach there, I don't feel I have done my work on learning. It takes a lot, and genuinely a lot of time to reach that state of mind. And even if you reach there, it is under constant threat of being overwritten by other memories. However, once you have a baseline, you can easily remember more facts and how to do things. I hope it makes sense!
- Exuma 3y ago
  You have so many warped views I don't even know where to start. God have mercy on your soul. I have given up on hopes of learning. There is no such thing as learning after highschool. It's always one thing after another. College is chasing grades. Post graduate chasing papers. Never got a true chance to dive and learn. There is no room for failure. All I had to do was put of patch work to clear the subjects. How can I expect myself to be good when I have cheated the system throughout my life. I would love to be average. No responsibility. Slightly better pay. You also fall on same average category. If you had any idea, you would have written something about it. These statements are the true definition of a loser. You should find a way to change that and contemplate how absolutely absurd the statements you are making are. Have a moment of deep self introspection and reflection instead of knee jerk whining. Just the single statement alone "There is no such thing as learning after highschool" is quite literally one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Start with that one... contemplate how........ absolutely, and utterly, incorrect that statement is. If you disagree, then start to pick apart your reasons for disagreeing, analyze how others outside yourself seem to be doing it and you are not. Stop lying to yourself. And most of all, raise your goal posts above being as mediocre as possible, jesus christ. Contemplate, even further, how ridiculous it is that you think its only possible to enjoy yourself if you have no responsibility and are a mediocre piss-ant. I can't even type this without feeling physical pain at your views. I hope you are 18 years old or something, and these things will sort them self out for you later in life.
  - throwaway1183 3y ago
    Okay, so going by your definition, I am a loser. Your first attempt put me in a derogatory way saying, "Stay far away from my companies.... barf" Then you stick to the idea of calling me a loser from your point of view. I don't know what you are trying to prove but I was just asking a question on a way to genuinely get by in life. We do not live in the same world. So what rule applies to you doesn't apply to me. Yet still I asked this question because being an average has a statistically better chance (as the law of large numbers holds). I wanted to get a realistic view of average people and what they do. If you look at other comments of mine, I am not against learning. I am against the definition of learning which is phony. It is one thing to know something, and it is a different thing to learn. I have seen many so-called learned ones struggle with the applications of their knowledge. At that point, how do you know if the person has actually learnt anything? People can grow beyond their limits. There is multiple dimension in life. And learning doesn't necessarily mean always learning the next hype stuff or yada yada. That is practically useless. I humbly request you to point out the number of situations in your life where you applied second-order partial differential equations to solve anything that you are doing. (If that rings a bell, that is.) Or heck even used some esoteric algorithms to improve some heuristics. Bet you still use the fundamentals you learned in college and apply them. Did you ever truly learn new things? Are you apt to catch up on all the buzz that is going on in the AI, dissect everything and teach to a high school graduate? Can you learn the graphics and say implement Gaussian splatting on your own system? Or even write your own transpiler to do something? I do not know your background. I do not understand why you are so offended here to think that I am a brainless person who burts or whines without thinking. There are multiple thoughts and stages of thoughts before admitting something. You make it sound like I never tried. Trust me, I have. I have done more than you. It sucks to be blocked when I can't show any physical result of learning because of limitations from financial stuff. Then if someone would fund, there is a lack of confidence. The guilt that I may expend their resources over nothing. The only reason I want to be average is because I know I am slightly above average say (51%). It is just easy for me down there to work in an average way. It is more relaxing. I don't have to challenge myself or pull out my hair. Then eventually I hope to find something else in life. We have a different perspective on life. You think in your own way, to rise above mediocrity. I think of embracing it. I just want to know what are the options so that I can make some life choices. I regret choosing a hard path in life. It never gave me anything. Now I want to stop pursuing it. Stop spinning in the wheel.
android521 3y ago
By definition , most people must be average programmers. everyone cannot be 'extraordinary'. I am pretty sure that you're probably average too unless you're better than 99% of the programmers.
- Exuma 3y ago
  I'm absolutely not talking about "average programmers", also I am better than average by a large margin (based objectively on what I have achieved alone as a developer/entrepreneur, and comments made by another developer who is a pioneer in his field, and one of the best developers I know), but that is beside the point. I'm talking about WANTING to be average, and the other assorted insane views this OP has. Nothing wrong with being average programmer, everyone starts somewhere, and my early Stack Overflow questions are hilarious.
  - badpun 3y ago
    People don't start at being average. Average is (by definition) where majority of developers arrive at after years in the industry. Also, it's perfectly fine to aim at being average - one may be aware of various limitations (health, intelligence, memory, ADHD and similar disorders, family situation) that will likely limit them to being average at best. If they aim for being a star despite those limitations, they risk burning out and getting nowhere.

badpun 3y ago

That's not average, that's bottom of the barrel. Average developers do a decent enough job, but aren't super fast about it. They also can't conceive of large refactorings in their head, don't follow all the latest trends in their area of expertise etc. They're just average. Majority of working developers are like that, by definition.

Exuma 3y ago
Answering in order: First of all, YOU are not a loser, but your viewpoints are. That is a large difference, as at ANY point you can have a moment of introspection to change your mind and beliefs, to be better. That's one of the greatest things about life is you can choose to be whatever you want to be, simply by doing it. Tough love never hurt anyone, I find the best answer is the answer which resonates the truth. I personally don't prefer to be coddled and told "im a good boy" when my work fucking sucks. I want someone to tell me my work fucking sucks. This is the SHORTEST path from A->B (improvement), and if you respect your own time/energy, and care about efficiency, then it makes sense that this is a good approach. Your third paragraph I don't even understand. Personally I learn for around maybe 1-6 hours per day depending on what I'm doing. Each morning starting at 5am I wake up, make coffee, and spend the entire morning getting in the right headspace learning about vastly different subjects through experiential learning. For example, an app I built recently that is doing well involves a large amount of statistics, and while I learned bayesian stats/linear algebra for a previous project/algorithm, I now have to re-learn a lot of things that I forgot. So I wake up, do that for hours, and I enjoy it, every second of it. All the things I'm learning I utilize in my own work. Another example: Ive spent the last 40 days converting/optimizing my 10+ year vim config to neovim, so for that I had to learn Lua (easy), how neovim works, etc etc. I've spent maybe 100+ hours on that alone over 40 days, ALL of that was learning. I have maybe 50 forum posts/IRC questions where all I did was learn for some purpose. Nowhere in here did i mention "hype stuff". Literally nothing in my day is concerned with hype. The vast amount of my time, 10-15 hours a day is spend coding on any one of my companies, learning all I need to for them (I am a solo developer on all of them with no tech employees). > I humbly request you to point out the number of situations in your life where you applied second-order partial differential equations to solve anything that you are doing I once spent over a year developing an ad network bidding optimization algorithm, and while it didn't involve differential equations it did involve a large amount of advanced statistics topics + machine learning topics, in essentially how to perform billions of ad auctions to optimize X with hundreds of input variables. I did that completely alone in my own bedroom. Ad network bidding mechanisms are black boxes because no one wants to expose how their X-priority pricing optimizations work, so I basically had to learn everything myself entirely from scratch, only scraping the bottom of the barrel with multi-year old white papers on ad network optimization. After some time doing this myself, just spending hours and hours each day doing this, I showed my work to the #2 developer at the largest mobile ad network at the time who developed their algorithm, and he told me that he was extremely surprised to see I got that far as a single person in the time I did, and mentioned it took their whole team to come up with something similar in a longer amount of time. And yet....... I didn't go to school for computer science. I literally went to college for the arts. Everything I have ever known is 100% self taught. I've never had mentors, classes, or anything. I dont even REMEMBER the things I learned in high school or college. Regarding graphics... one time I wanted to learn how rendering engines work so I learned all the math behind how to make a spinning 3d cube using different projection matrices etc, and then learned all the math that goes into that, and WHY it works. I'm horrible at math, btw. That took about a week, and I got to make a 3d cube, that had proper lighting etc, simply by just lots and lots of learning and reading. I have a HUGE amount of examples like this, literally hundreds over the many years. I am not offended, I'm more disgusted, as anyone who personally sets their own goal posts far lower intentionally to "get by in life", has a repulsive mindset to me. It's literally "repelling". Notice I said the mindset, not the actual PERSON. I personally aim to be the best I can possibly be, in every manifestation of everything I do. Every single thing I partake in, I optimize/improve it, I try to be the absolute best at it. I'm not saying every person has to be like that, as obivously they are not, but they should not SEEK to be average, they should spend energy introspecting what blocks them. For me personally it feels organic, natural. Nothing to do with ego, and only to do with what "makse sense" in the most blinding way possible. We are put on this earth with free will, and the ability to grow, so why should the "grow" subprocess not take priority, as long as health and joy are balanced along with it. I find the actual process extremely rewarding and joyful. It sounds like you should try to be an entrepreneur perhaps, where you will learn all of that on your own and actually do what you will. If you are smarter than average, then start utilizing it to its fullest potential. There are hundreds of millions of dollars to be made when you stop working for other people and work for yourself. That advice isnt good for most people though, but if you feel like you want to challenge your mind and USE the things you are better than average at, then do it. Theres literally so many avenues in tech that you can do that with, and they DONT involve........ startups, funding, or even other developers. I have worked with the same business partner for many years, and we have built countless very hard technical things that have absolutely crushed. I am not the smartest in the room (my last comment was an IQ test I took that was ~125, so nothing spectacular), but I am absolutely the best at integrating intelligent design with execution, in a way non-technical people can understand, while also getting my hands dirty with the most complex technical aspects, even if it means learning an entire part of a field to do it. This to me is the sweet spot. What is your exact thing you are stuck on, if you had to distil it down into a single problem? Is it that you can't find a way to convert your above average intelligence into dollars?
- throwaway1183 3y ago
  Arguing with you has been quite productive! Thanks for writing the detailed response. It shows me the perspective of where you come from. I am baffled and in awe at what you can achieve with one correct process and routine. I still have some opinions but those are useless because you have a proven track of the things that I exactly wanted to know. 1. How do you get the confidence over time? I am sure I can also do what you can but will take me 3x or heck even 4x the effort. So, it feels a bit sad to know by the time I am done, it will be worthless despite enjoying the process. 2. I liked how you admitted you forget things too. So this process of relearning for the nth time, does it make the experience enjoyable? For me, I find it tiring to know that I have to do the same thing over and over and some people just get by. It feels kind of disheartening. And more to it, now it's AI that can do it better. 3. I have tried different things big or small. Did quite a few interesting things but nothing remarkable at all. I like engineering/design and making usable things. However, whatever I do is never enough for "others" while it is really okay for me. Now this is the source of all issues. Once I finish a project, I move on to the next project or venture. There is no introspection from what I built. I just like building but not pushing. Consequently, they do not look impressive because they are just replicas nothing more. I get the illusion that I am learning things, but once I blindfold and try to recreate it, I can't. It is disheartening too. 4. I actually come from a disadvantaged background. English is not my primary language. Thus, I put in extra effort whenever I do something to compensate for the lack of communication. It has helped me. Now not everything can be communicated when there is no remarkable portfolio to show. As you have proven yourself, things take time to build. The problem here is I can't afford the luxury of time because of other aspects of life. I get an hour of free personal time at max. 5. The whole idea of finding an average job was to finish it within 4 hours (because I don't have to put effort) and later use the remaining time for myself. This is the only way in which I believe I can make substantial progress in self-improvement. 6. Answering your final question. I am poor in terms of background, skills, and execution (time management). I can do enough to get by but not enough to impress or get other people interested in me for opportunities. This is why I am direly seeking a position where I can get by and still get a chance to improve. I thought college would give that, but it didn't. I thought a postgraduate would give that, but it didn't. I want something easy because I am genuinely tired. So, I am not living up to my potential, I am not getting hired because I don't have "experience" for entry-level positions in the field I am interested in. (Idk why it's called entry-level). Consequently, I just want to get through life, find easy tasks, get things done, and then carry on from there.

Exuma 3y ago
These are good question, and the first one of which is especially poignant for me, far more than you would realize. I have in past talked about intuition based learning (me) vs ... what I'd say 90% of developers are which is a practical/observational based learning. For me ESPECIALLY it's poignant because in my internal model of the world, I do NOT rely on things I've achieved previously to "carry me" through future interactions, or confidence in speaking. I simply don't think like that. Instead, it feels a like an silent void where every situation is infinitely complex with multitudes of different variables from every other experience in my life. I don't think many people are like that. I talk a lot more about this elsewhere if you actually are interested. It was months back let me find it... in it I talk more about my version of "confidence" Ok I found it, start here: https://i.imgur.com/o3xT5Jh.png https://i.imgur.com/o3xT5Jh.png and then my reply here https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36693161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36693161 I have no idea if you are like that or not, but don't cut yourself short thinking it takes 3-4x the effort. Let me think about your questions throughout the day, as my mind has a lot layers of interconnected fibers, and I want to distil them all down into the most meaningful/impactful statements.
- throwaway1183 3y ago
  Sure, take your time! After reading your reply: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36693161 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36693161, it resonated with me because I am this type of learner. I need to break things fast, reach the wrong answer, and get stuck so that I can see examples and learn from them. It is really good at getting what is out there. But being in academia surrounded by people who learn from abstraction and words, I can't get any confidence to speak about myself. It feels like I have seen the other side and now I am constantly evaluating myself with that. I always thought this way of learning was fake learning because everything relied on intuition and most of the time my intuition was wrong. I had to go back re-read and attempt again. Once I fixed it, I was done with it and next time I had to restart from scratch because to me, it's a completely new situation. This made me feel like I never learnt anything in the past and I was actually someone who cheated the system because I knew exact things to be said in the right way. Like an incantation of a magic spell. But after reading your reply, I will now dive a bit deeper into this kind of learning and see how it resonates with my internal world and learning! Thanks for sharing it! > The downside is always when I’m around strong people of the other type I get the sense they don’t respect this style of learning sometimes. It comes through in their words, tone, subtle body language cues. This is also one source of in-confidence. Everything started with the introduction of LLMs. It just punishes the person like me because I have a unique way of doing things. I claim this because I rapidly process information, try to understand behaviors and execute it. In any case I can't do it, I resort into finding other sources who has done it. I can understand the solution as long as it is written in clear way. It can be research paper, books, equations, code, blog, even just some random discussion as long as it hints into certain direction to trigger a spark. After that I try to use whatever I think is the best. Simply put, I can give a solution, not just the best one but one to get 80% job done.
  - Exuma 3y ago
    It's absolutely not fake. I still haven't replied yet but I did want to say this one thing while you're waiting... A lot of people dislike MBTI by saying its "not scientific," but this to me is irrelevant as I am an extremely introspective person who has dived to the ends of the earth to understand myself. I've spent what must be 100,000+ hours introspecting and for most of my life there existed many many paradoxes that I just COULDNT ever explain, let alone even begin to understand. They existed as complex webs of phantoms in my own mind, where I'd go to speak it and it would "collapse" in meaning to "not actually what I meant". It wasn't until I discovered my MBTI type (INTJ) and how my cognitive function stack operates that I had about 1000 epiphanies that blew my mind. It was one of the most profound introspective moments of my whole life, because it made about... maybe 20 or 30 paradoxes Ive never been able to understand all click right after another after another after anohter. 2 things: 1) MBTI is most effective when looking at the cognitive functions, NOT just the overall "type" which is more generic. You really have to research about each function type, and what your function stack is, to get the most value. 2) I don't think MBTI is a perfect solution for every type, but I'm one of the lucky types (maybe intuitive introverts) who I feel benefit the most. For my type specifically, it describes me SO WELL that its scary. Far far more accurately than a 'random' or non-scientific theory could describe me. I watched this video about myself and it says things that no person has ever understood about me, at a level so deep its like touching the heart of my soul: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKzX-D2-GM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKKzX-D2-GM You could look more into taking this test to narrow down what your function stack is https://sakinorva.net/functions https://sakinorva.net/functions If you resonate at all with what I said in that post you might be something similar. When I understood these things, I stopped seeing them as me being "broken" per se... I mean I never thought I was broken but I would be very frustrated why my mind was always "empty" when other engineers seem to always have a neverending objective stream of concrete ideas. Over time, as I read more and more and more about functions, I started to see and relate to people much better and differently, and also see how the parts of me I used to be confused at are actually huge advantages. And the areas where I am weak at (extremely in-depth domain knowledge) I can interact with those people and lean on them for that.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
deleted 3y ago
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badpun 3y ago

> The vast amount of my time, 10-15 hours a day is spend coding on any one of my companies This is the key. Vast majority of people can maybe code for 20 hours a week, and not 60-100 like you can. If you're blessed with such genetics, your mindset makes sense, as it will actually generate good payoff for you. However, bear in mind that regular ("average") people play in a different, much lower league.

Exuma 3y ago
Your replies sound good on the surface, but also enabling. I don't buy it. The vast majority CAN do that, when they're not sedated with TV, drinking every weekend, smoking weed every day, etc. The mind of course is a muscle, and it must be built up like any other muscle. I've helped ... maybe close to 70-100 people over the years, some for only a day, some for months, some for a year. (helping them with coding, business stuff, etc). I have a lot of solid reference points of what all different wakes of life are capable of. Take ADHD for instance... my first business partner had extreme ADHD and also used it effectively to earn a net worth over several hundred million. He started by selling drugs and poor (just to diffuse any ideas he was born rich like your other comment). He just had a bunch of ways to deal with it effectively and channel it. My other business partner mainly does jujitsu a lot, and has a lower innate focus level, but he's done all sorts of combinations of activities and sleeping patterns and supplements and whatnot to generate the best possible method for focusing, and has done it. We both work together all day long. For example he has to work in silence, or have certain music playing. I also have 2 half brothers that are not from the same dad (where I get my mental genetics from, as I am identical to my dad). My one brother works at a dispensary and has never worked his brain harder than literally pushing 5 buttons in order on the screen, was JUST talking to me about this extensively. I took him on a 'deep dive' coding session with me over the period of 6 hours and did that multiple days in a row, and he had a panic attack (sort of) about how intense it was. He felt bad for several days because of the stark realization how he's never used his brain that hard in his life (hes wanting to know code, and I brought him right in on a screenshare where I made him program extensively on deep parts of the app, diving right into the deep end, where he got total information overload). His reality in a sense was shattered, and he had literally an "awakening" of sorts because it made him realize where he's at, and what he's been doing, what he's NOT been doing, and gave him a reference point SO far outside his comfort zone that it caused all his remaining reference points to "recalibrate" to encompass that outlier. I didn't talk to him for a week to let it digest, and he later said he naturally started watching videos on his own and said it felt "really good" to use his brain like this. He's been doing it more and more, flexing it more and more. This is the process through which one can do that, of course you're not going to do 15 hours of coding right away, but just by flexing it repeatedly and having moments of self awareness and self clarity, is it possible. I KNOW it's possible because I've seen many people do it (not to the level I do, but absolutely to the level where you can achieve great monetary success). The problem is, most people will never GET that moment of self clarity becuase they don't have someone like me being harsh and telling them they're a loser and it's time to wake up. Everyone around them is an enabler telling them its in their genetics that they can't do it, that the other person is "lucky", or hand holding and coddling them into a continued sedated state of self deception.
- badpun 3y ago
  I'm a good counterexample to that story though. I've started coding when I was nine, have Masters in Computer Science, have worked in software for roughly 15 years (most of that coding). I've taught myself linear algebra, 3d computer vision/vSLAM from scratch, computer graphics (incl. more advanced concepts like PBR, Mesh Shaders etc.), statistics and machine learning, and probably other things I'm forgetting now. However, in the end I chose not to do anything with that knowledge and that interest, and work relatively simple back-end jobs. Why? Because, no matter how hard I try, I can't put in more than 15-20 hours of hard focus per week. If I try to push myself harder, I just crash (sometimes even after two days - I get intense headaches on day three and my experiment is concluded). I've tried it probably dozens of times, and the results were always similar - if anything, it got worse with age (I had more energy in my twenties than now in my fourties).
  - Exuma 3y ago
    so 3 hours of focus per day? That sounds like a medical problem to me, so if it really is that then it is understandable. But thats not the vast majority of people like you mentioned (although the vast majority does suffer from focus problems). Have you tried fasting or other things to help try to narrow down the cause of your headaches? Have you had extensive blood panels (a full panel, not a simple one your doctor will give you... I think you have to order the FULL full ones online). A lot of my business partners and people I work with do that biohacking stuff where they try to find out every way to augment their body. They do weird stuff like fly to mexico to get stem cell injections, etc. Ive never been into that, I just take a multivitamin, but it's possible there is something you're deficient in that could be found out? I'd be almost certain there is SOME combination of SOME THING on this earth that would fix whatever it is, even if it's not well medically documented. I know a number of people with severe neurotic issues, like TRUE neurotic issues, and fasting is really the only common denominator of what has helped them more than any medicine. People have thought fasting was fugazi woo-woo for the longest time but I believe medical science is now catching up as to the benefit (harvard studies, etc). Ive fruit fasted for 45 days once and healed my gall bladder after the doctor couldnt explain what was wrong with it and their only option was to cut it out.

throwaway1183 3y ago

I did these tests some times ago! If I fall into INTP/ENTP because I think of myself as an ambivert and my introvertness is a spectrum that varies with my emotions. Thanks for pointing a out functions! Will definitely check it out.

Exuma 3y ago
Multiple parts its too long === Interesting, so that is in the group I mentioned (intuitive introverts) which probably benefit the most. I know several other INxx types in my life who had profound realizations after reading about functions which helped them understand "why am I like this?". I think because any Ni/Ne functions are very confusing to understand, as the majority of the population doesn't operate like that. So all advice you will generally get doesn't even align with the core way your brain operates. If MBTI stats are correct, only about 20% of the population is N type. I won't talk about MBTI too much as I want to answer your questions, but there is a bit more here to unpack. If you find the functions useful, great. If not, also great. I'm not trying to "push" anything (for example IM sure there are flaws with the model, but as far as intuitive introverted types, INFP/INFJ/INTJ/INTP I think it really NAILS it. The creator of MBTI was INFP so perhaps that's why). I'm only saying for me personally it was one of the most profound realizations I've had in "WHY AM I LIKE THIS???". Not knowing never "blocked" me from being ambitious or having success, but it made it so much harder and more confusing and stressful. It literally drove me mad, like phantom in my head that wouldn't go away. Now all that is gone, all that's left is serenity and power. First you can already see people replying about how its BS, ignore that and decide for yourself. Just watch that channel I sent, watch his INTP/ENTP video and see if it resonates for you (5 signs youre not INTP/5 signs youre not ENTP). If it does, it should resonate SUPER deeply. If it "sort of" resonates, try another type. If none resonate, move on. INTP functions are Ti/Ne/Si/Fe. Keep this image up as you're looking at stuff... https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/4FOxRzLRbFa1d3dGmNC8csMUT74xMhJ1gwcJ8hkFqPnl97eVJ5WVhavM3LswqLCDPh-bzpsSkwEaWeJ5ZL-Dv-xdmOBD3GLy_XjyUwBjnjc8L1nG1664MYlLt1KMDQQHjmAkDsM0KfA5sfLhsQ https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/4FOxRzLRbFa1d3dGmNC8csMUT7... Also this one... https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e3/a7/cd/e3a7cd2cd36588ed5934912344861d42.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/564x/e3/a7/cd/e3a7cd2cd36588ed593491234... There's a lot of good info here and here specific to IN and NP types (maybe read later if you feel like it): https://personalityjunkie.com/infj-intp-intj-infp-enfp-entp-posts/ https://personalityjunkie.com/infj-intp-intj-infp-enfp-entp-... https://personalityjunkie.com/the-intp/ https://personalityjunkie.com/the-intp/ This info is more "generalized" though you will have to do a lot of reading on your own. Thats why I recommend just watching those videos first, he really goes in extreme depth which is why I like it - high information density. 5 signs youre not INTP: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jUosExjWPg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0jUosExjWPg If you end up not being an INTP, you still could be a dominant/auxilary Ti user like ENTP, etc. Watching those videos and reading will help you narrow it down. As for your questions -- Something about them I can't put my finger on it. I hate to bring up MBTI again (but as I said it's so relevant to me in my everyday life. this is why I love it, it helps me navigate certain peoples minds). I think you should read about Ti for sure, as I am an extremely heavy Te user, which are very different (this image important): https://i.redd.it/4e2apeqtkgv41.png https://i.redd.it/4e2apeqtkgv41.png Ti (you): https://64.media.tumblr.com/1754979912c37e66ed0412faf30b1204/tumblr_ojs078TKEl1utokvlo4_1280.png https://64.media.tumblr.com/1754979912c37e66ed0412faf30b1204... Te (me): https://64.media.tumblr.com/0c08f87f12be1b57ebf4e2f89a4a9afd/tumblr_ojs078TKEl1utokvlo6_1280.png https://64.media.tumblr.com/0c08f87f12be1b57ebf4e2f89a4a9afd... Efficiency is one of my absolute highest values, and simplification, and generally for me, I don't HAVE to understand something in order to just fix it. Ti is quite the opposite (if you are in fact INTP), and so you must consider what I'm saying in your own context. My advice likely will feel "off" to you, but simply understanding WHY it's off is a huge part into relating it to your own methods. For example this feels very "off" to me, what you said: "So, it feels a bit sad to know by the time I am done, it will be worthless despite enjoying the process." This seems like a perfect demonstration of Ti vs Te. For me, EVERYTHING I do is attached to a higher meaning, I don't ever learn for learning itself. If I am learning stats, its to solve an algorithm. Even if I'm learning something stupid like making that 3d cube, I will never create a 3d game but the entire purpose of why I did it was to challenge myself and see "am i capable of doing this? Am I smart enough?" It wasn't because I simply "enjoy the process" of learning about projection matrices. And by this logic, I will NEVER be "sad" that it was worthless, because I quite literally NEVER do things that do not have some purpose attached to it, and that is paramount to my type Ni + Te. I DONT enjoy the process of learning in and of itself, I enjoy the thing at the end and the achievement. This is a perfect example, just that one small sentence, why I love learning about cognitive functions. Things like this you will go read though on the internet for advice and you will have types like me, Te, telling you "why would you worry abou tthat?" and the way your mind processes information is just different. You need to look at Ti specifically and Ti advice to learn how to answer that question. so here goes, despite that. 1. I find confidence over time because I have just always trusted myself above anyone else, even as a kid. I grew up in complete isolation, so that probably has a lot to do with it. I had an extremely torturous childhood as well which made me very independent (no one else will help me except myself). That's always been an underlying thread in my life, so even though I will be NOT confident "work wise" in new situations with new teams, I still make do just fine. Ive trusted my code and my abilities by just DOING a lot of code and personal projects. I have over 100 personal projects, and not just 100 hello world apps, but actual projects. I think it's all about building reference points, as basically the thing that "solves everything." 2. I think I addressed this above, but I dont enjoy the process of learning without meaning, I enjoy applying energy into achieving a direct meaningful outcome using any means necessary, including vast amounts of learning. So when I learn it again and again because I forgot, I think nothing of it. As far as "AI" doing it better, heres another example where I literally cannot even relate to that thought. I am an infinitely complex machine with cognition, capable of doing anything I want. I have consciousness, ambitions. ChatGPT is literally a LLVM in a browser that cannot write any more than basic code without bugs. Again I feel this is a Ti/Te thing... if learning is a means to an end for you, perhaps it feels like this "thing" has "bested you" because it "knows everything," making the pursuite of learning as a means to an end "more pointless." For me, I give zero fucks about that. ZERO. because how does that affect me? If I want to earn 1 million dollars building an app, then ChatGPT is not going to block me from doing that, in fact it will help me probably. It's just a tool, nothing more (funny because I think this is actually what the image above says, Te treats information as a tool). It literally has NOTHING to do with me, or what I'm capable of. It has nothing to do with my learning other than SPEEDING IT UP by a factor of 100x. Now again, you would have to apply that to Ti or reconcile it a different way to how you think. Perhaps you could look at it like, chatGPT did nothing other than put information that ALREADY EXISTS into a certain form. If you were upset by chatGPT making your learning meaningless, then why were you not upset by the information already existing in the first place? Why do experts in their respective fields not upset you? Is all the SAME information simply being regurgitated by a model rather than all the worlds leading experts really change anything? I have no idea if that line of questioning helps, but thats probably how I would think about it. Are you starting to see why I like function stacks? Its for nuanced complicated things like this. Even a single sentence, of how we disagree, it can start to illuminate so much of WHY which then begins the process of integration and BYPASSING those things which we are stuck on. more good examples: https://practicaltyping.com/2021/01/25/5-differences-between-te-and-ti-logic/ https://practicaltyping.com/2021/01/25/5-differences-between... I believe INTP is one of the most depressed types if I remember right because they have the hardest stack to "deal with" life (really paraphrasing here). Theres entire books written about dealing with being an INTP: https://personalityjunkie.com/intp-book-personality-careers-relationships-truth-meaning/ https://personalityjunkie.com/intp-book-personality-careers-... All of this is only about Ti even, this doesn't even go into the complex world of Ni vs Ne, and how 80% of the rest of the world has dom/aux Ni/Ne function at all, but rather Si/Se
- Exuma 3y ago
  3. is more of the exact same. I can't even begin to relate to these ideas, because they aren't even issues to begin with... "I like engineering/design and making usable things" => Make usable things. I don't make unusable things because its waste of time, I make things that give me what I want most (freedom), which also correlates to money. I just really enjoy programming as that process of doing it "However, whatever I do is never enough for "others" while it is really okay for me" => I literally give zero fucks about others, I'm sure thats obvious by now. I literally couldn't give a flying asshole hair about what someone's opinion is. Seriously though, I picked a business partner I got along with, and we built things, and made lots of $, and had lots of fun, and I wake up every day excited for what the day brings. I work very very hard, but it never feels like "work." Thinking of "others" is so far from my realm of reality that ... well, even when I worked for someone at my first job, I didn't care about that. I care about what I value above others. "I move on to the next project or venture. There is no introspection from what I built." => Hmm... I have some of the most painful failures in some projects you could ever imagine. I have 2 stories that come to mind, where it was absolutely soul crushing. Think of that guy who sold his shares in apple for $4000. its kind of like that. Even for these projects I dont really feel introspection, just reference points to expand my experience, and make me battle hardened. I don't think much of them, or lament about them. I also dont have any major epiphanies of introspection about them. They just happened, and thats that. "because they are just replicas nothing more" => Again this is like a Ti/Te thing I think. For my own code, I treat it like art. You might think if I care about things as a "tool" then I dont care about code quality or how it looks. Quite the contrary, I think my type is extremely creative characteristically, and I am also extremely creative. I like to draw and paint as much as I like to code. I embody both extremely logical and extremely creative processes, so I treat my code like art. The best solution to me is an elegant one. So I also would be bothered by creating hollow replicas of things IF I didn't have something else more meaningful to me. My neovim config is something dear to me. I've refined my vim/neovim config for my entire professional life, and it feels like my "essence" as weird as that sounds. Its very meaningful to me. So I channel my positive creative energy into things that DO matter, while I can also throw up a cheap replica I did in a day and not think that it hurts my identity. If I didn't have those other meaningful things though, it WOULD hurt me for sure. I channel my soul and being into most code I write, and thats part of why big failures hurt me so much, it feels like a part of me is gone. I used to apply my energy to anything and everything in 20s, and now Im far more deliberate about what gets that "soul juice". the rest of the time, other things get a dilluted form of my energy that doesnt take away from me. "The problem here is I can't afford the luxury of time because of other aspects of life. I get an hour of free personal time at max" => This is probably one of the largest problems I see here. Out of the entire post. Is this something you can fix in any way possible? Is it because of school? Are you sure its a real problem that cant be fixed? When I started I did freelancing for 8 hours a day and then spent the whole rest of the day learning and doing my own personal projects. When I had my first job, I worked 8 hours a day coding at a company, and another 5-8 hours building my own first app. Ideally theres a lot of time you can make, if you cut out TV, going out, etc. 5. "The whole idea of finding an average job was to finish it within 4 hours (because I don't have to put effort) and later use the remaining time for myself. This is the only way in which I believe I can make substantial progress in self-improvement" => I think you should read the stuff I put above, I think it might answer this better than I could. It sounds like you might have an "energy" problem to resolve. 6. "I want something easy because I am genuinely tired." => Ask yourself what you want. For me, I value freedom. And money means freedom. I want to be able to wake up, do anything I want, buy anything I want, travel anywhere I want. It doesnt mean I'm always doing it, but thats what I wanted. When I started, I envisioned it like candles. Id think of a "fallback" about if i could do this ONE thing for the rest of my life, I would be happy. I really love traveling, and theres a whole field of "vegabonding" where you travel for as little money as possible. For a few thousand a month, I could travel the world with a laptop. I KNEW that I COULD achieve that, and so I always knew in the back of my mind "if I lose everything, and fail at everything, I will always have that". This allowed me to get that fear out of the way, and then naturally something bigger came along through applied effort. And then I replaced that candle with a brighter candle (a big project doing well, etc). I always kept replacing my "worst case fallback" and upgrading it, knowing if EVERYTHING I do fails, I will always have "X" to fall back on. Over the years, that has just grown to bigger (and multiple) candles. It has been a gradual process over the years. I suspect though all of that will be fairly meaningless to you or not helpful as IF you are dominant Ti user then you might not think like that (but I hope it helps!), but perhaps that INTP book would help if I did not. I do know lots has been written about "life purpose for INTPs" who seem to struggle with it. "So, I am not living up to my potential, I am not getting hired because I don't have "experience" for entry-level positions in the field I am interested in." => For this, practically speaking, this is why I work for myself and not others. Theres an entire other world most people dont even know about. Theres a HUGE amount of money to be made through being an entreprenur. My immediate friend/business group is made up of all very successful, very rich entrepreneurs, none of which were "born into money" like lots of people are always talking about. Some of them own some of the largest networks of certain industries in the entire world. These people are everywhere, this world exists if you look for it. Marketing/entrepreneur groups are a great place to start, as while I dont agree with most of what they say (I am techincal they are not) theyre great for meeting or interfacing with potential business partners. My facebook is full of tons of those movers and shakers, like the media buyer for a FAANG company who owns an agency, or the largest mover of product X on facebook etc, theyre constantly wanting to create joint ventures with people. You dont HAVE to work for someone if you do not want to. And, there are lots of very complex problems to solve if youre smart enough to do that. Theres no limit to how much you can use your brain.

throwaway1183 3y ago

You are really literally like me because you did the things I did. I have also dabble with them. I have also experimented with it. Only thing is I never made anything valuable. I guess I only did it for sake of learning and being happy. Conversation with Exuma has made me realize he only learns when he absolutely needs to, while I learn when I feel like learning. Then I can't also put focus. Because of inefficiencies in other aspect of life. I can't optimize because I am just paranoid on most things. I would love to work for myself but I do not come from a background (because of work, energy and time) where I can sustain it. Maybe I should think of ways to do it and try to find ways. However, do you think putting 2 hrs a week on a single project for extended time will take me to places?

badpun 3y ago
> However, do you think putting 2 hrs a week on a single project for extended time will take me to places? What places? Getting a job in the field? I think it could do it, unless the field is very hard to get into (e.g. 3d computer vision/vSLAM is considerably harder to get into than computer graphics, machine learning research is much harder to get into than applied machine learning (glorified data science) etc.). A good approach is to talk to some insiders in the field to get a feel of how hard would it be. If you don't know anyone, topical subreddits are not the worst place to ask this. I went through exactly this path, even got some interviews, but learned that the jobs that would interest me the most are hardest to get into, and would mean a large pay decrease (I was making a ton in my current area of expertise). The nail in the coffin was chatting with some guy from Facebook AR (I met him on reddit) team who had my dream job and who said that, in my position, he'd prefer to just accumulate money and FIRE in 5 years, instead of starting a new career.
Exuma 3y ago
To add small amount of context, I do also enjoy learning when its not a 'tool' but its a very narrow margin of the medium. For example, i've probably watched every single 3blue1brown video on youtube there is, yet I won't really use any of that. I watch them while I'm eating and any time they come out, as well as a few similar channels. But this sort of learning is more about the purpose of stimulating my mind with challenges rather than acquiring knowledge. 80% of my time learning is when its a tool, 20% of the time its for stimulation, 100% of the time it is for some meaning other than it being satisfying to collect knowledge and facts, which is 0% of the time.