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> Besides, it was in Europe. Us Europeans do not have the same epidermic reaction to communism that Americans have. You're just making it worse and worse. I'm

> Besides, it was in Europe. Us Europeans do not have the same epidermic reaction to communism that Americans have. You're just making it worse and worse. I'm also European. I'm guessing you're Western European though? I'm also guessing your country wasn't under soviet occupation for 50 years? Eastern Europeans very much do have a bad allergic reaction to communism, just like Americans, and just like everyone else who came in contact with it. Che was at best a useful idiot.

_njyk 3y ago
It's true that in Western Europe it's fine to show the communist symbols. To Westerner, they never saw communism in action, only propaganda. Which means that kids can proudly wear their capitalistic-made Che Guevara t-shirt at school. However, in Eastern Europe it's an absolute no, wearing such shirts is worse than the nazi symbols because it shows support to extreme atrocities in front of people who were victim of them.
- jraph 3y ago
  Communism refers to at least two separate things, though (in Western Europe). - a theoretical economic model that is opposed to capitalism - the atrocious regimes of the 20th century calling themselves communism you are referring to that have vanishingly few things to do with the first. Vanishingly few people in Western Europe support these atrocious regimes. And therefore, communism the way you are using it. What's more, there's not much propaganda for communism here (I believe there was propaganda in the past, though). The confusion is usually here and people mostly don't see communism with a good eye because of the confusion (or because they are knowledgeable and oppose the theory - which is a better reason to be against it). Now, it's true that we have weaker feelings about it than in the US (and, I guess, the parts of the words that suffered from the atrocious regimes). (The usual response to this is that theoretical communism invariably leads to these atrocious regimes, but I believe we don't know this - invariably, it seems they've been set up by possibly sadist assholes with huge egos and thirsts for power, we haven't tried without - as well as we don't know if it would work. I don't have any further useful point to make in this discussion so I probably won't engage in it.)
  - sdfghswe 3y ago
    Communism refers to at least two separate things: the theory and the reality. That's basically what you just said, right?
    - jraph 3y ago
      No. This is a very bad summary of what I carefully tried to make, that completely misses the point. I'm sorry I was not clear enough, but I'm afraid I won't be able to express myself better so I'll just leave it at that. You are free to make this point if you want, just don't make it look like it comes from me because it doesn't.
      - sdfghswe 3y ago
        Cool I'll make the point then. I've learned about communism from two types of sources. Philosophy books and history books, and the takeaways are quite different.
        jraph 3y ago
        Yes, so you conclude that theoretical communism leads to these horrible regimes. It's a reasonable hypothesis, just not the only one. This week I only saw white people in the streets. I could conclude all people walking in my city are white. But that's false.
        sdfghswe 3y ago
        Counter example please?
        jraph 3y ago
        We don't have any counter example. But I'd say we don't have any example neither: regimes from your history books weren't "communism" we find in your philosophy books. You can see it if you read both carefully enough. (and again, I'm not stating communism can work, because we don't know that). But even if we assume both "communisms" are the same: you are saying "Communism has failed N times, therefore it will always fail". You don't know that (though I would admit it's quite solid evidence in this case) We don't know. And I'm not arguing for or against communism here neither.
- mongol 3y ago
  It is fine in certain circles only. We are many that think it is completely insane, but we acknowledge that we live in a democracy with freedom of opinion.
- bonoboTP 3y ago
  > However, in Eastern Europe it's an absolute no, wearing such shirts is worse than the nazi symbols As a Hungarian, this is just not true. The Western view of communism has been imported and the more time goes on, the more the younger generations base their views on what's cool in the West vs what their old and uncool grandparents blabber on about. With the Internet and media and travel options and exchange semesters etc. the Western European attitude is diffusing into the east as well. It was already cool to wear Che t shirts 20 years ago in Budapest. Though of course Budapest has always been a West oriented cosmopolitan liberal city, so copying the west in this is not so surprising.
  - orthoxerox 3y ago
    Che shirts - yes, "1956: best year of my life" shirts - not so much.
    - bonoboTP 3y ago
      Sure, because 1956 is quite Hungary-specific. The more our media globalizes (eg TikTok trends in sync all over the world, not even a week delay in the newest fad), the less people relate these things to their local history. People use international cultural references and only see the Hungary-specific local view in school where they are bored anyway. 1956 is also interesting as it became relevant politically again with the war in Ukraine. And it is my impression that many people in Hungary look at this not as something happening in a bordering country but as if trying to see it through Western European/North American eyes. A bit like vampire Transylvania, which might as well be a totally different entity than Erdély. So is "Ukraine whose flag the celebs put on their profile pics" a separate entity from Ukraine, east from Nyíregyháza and Mátészalka, where the cheap cigarettes come from etc. A very different set of connotations. Similarly, the communism that's cool is mentally compartmentalized away from historic reality like 1956, Rákosi, Kádár etc.

_njyk 3y ago

It's true that in Western Europe it's fine to show the communist symbols. To Westerner, they never saw communism in action, only propaganda. Which means that kids can proudly wear their capitalistic-made Che Guevara t-shirt at school. However, in Eastern Europe it's an absolute no, wearing such shirts is worse than the nazi symbols because it shows support to extreme atrocities in front of people who were victim of them.

jraph 3y ago
Communism refers to at least two separate things, though (in Western Europe). - a theoretical economic model that is opposed to capitalism - the atrocious regimes of the 20th century calling themselves communism you are referring to that have vanishingly few things to do with the first. Vanishingly few people in Western Europe support these atrocious regimes. And therefore, communism the way you are using it. What's more, there's not much propaganda for communism here (I believe there was propaganda in the past, though). The confusion is usually here and people mostly don't see communism with a good eye because of the confusion (or because they are knowledgeable and oppose the theory - which is a better reason to be against it). Now, it's true that we have weaker feelings about it than in the US (and, I guess, the parts of the words that suffered from the atrocious regimes). (The usual response to this is that theoretical communism invariably leads to these atrocious regimes, but I believe we don't know this - invariably, it seems they've been set up by possibly sadist assholes with huge egos and thirsts for power, we haven't tried without - as well as we don't know if it would work. I don't have any further useful point to make in this discussion so I probably won't engage in it.)
- sdfghswe 3y ago
  Communism refers to at least two separate things: the theory and the reality. That's basically what you just said, right?
  - jraph 3y ago
    No. This is a very bad summary of what I carefully tried to make, that completely misses the point. I'm sorry I was not clear enough, but I'm afraid I won't be able to express myself better so I'll just leave it at that. You are free to make this point if you want, just don't make it look like it comes from me because it doesn't.
    - sdfghswe 3y ago
      Cool I'll make the point then. I've learned about communism from two types of sources. Philosophy books and history books, and the takeaways are quite different.
      - jraph 3y ago
        Yes, so you conclude that theoretical communism leads to these horrible regimes. It's a reasonable hypothesis, just not the only one. This week I only saw white people in the streets. I could conclude all people walking in my city are white. But that's false.
        sdfghswe 3y ago
        Counter example please?
        jraph 3y ago
        We don't have any counter example. But I'd say we don't have any example neither: regimes from your history books weren't "communism" we find in your philosophy books. You can see it if you read both carefully enough. (and again, I'm not stating communism can work, because we don't know that). But even if we assume both "communisms" are the same: you are saying "Communism has failed N times, therefore it will always fail". You don't know that (though I would admit it's quite solid evidence in this case) We don't know. And I'm not arguing for or against communism here neither.
mongol 3y ago
It is fine in certain circles only. We are many that think it is completely insane, but we acknowledge that we live in a democracy with freedom of opinion.
bonoboTP 3y ago
> However, in Eastern Europe it's an absolute no, wearing such shirts is worse than the nazi symbols As a Hungarian, this is just not true. The Western view of communism has been imported and the more time goes on, the more the younger generations base their views on what's cool in the West vs what their old and uncool grandparents blabber on about. With the Internet and media and travel options and exchange semesters etc. the Western European attitude is diffusing into the east as well. It was already cool to wear Che t shirts 20 years ago in Budapest. Though of course Budapest has always been a West oriented cosmopolitan liberal city, so copying the west in this is not so surprising.
- orthoxerox 3y ago
  Che shirts - yes, "1956: best year of my life" shirts - not so much.
  - bonoboTP 3y ago
    Sure, because 1956 is quite Hungary-specific. The more our media globalizes (eg TikTok trends in sync all over the world, not even a week delay in the newest fad), the less people relate these things to their local history. People use international cultural references and only see the Hungary-specific local view in school where they are bored anyway. 1956 is also interesting as it became relevant politically again with the war in Ukraine. And it is my impression that many people in Hungary look at this not as something happening in a bordering country but as if trying to see it through Western European/North American eyes. A bit like vampire Transylvania, which might as well be a totally different entity than Erdély. So is "Ukraine whose flag the celebs put on their profile pics" a separate entity from Ukraine, east from Nyíregyháza and Mátészalka, where the cheap cigarettes come from etc. A very different set of connotations. Similarly, the communism that's cool is mentally compartmentalized away from historic reality like 1956, Rákosi, Kádár etc.