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I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste. Either it doesn't happen/doesn't happen enough for a law so this is most eff

I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste. Either it doesn't happen/doesn't happen enough for a law so this is most effectively virtue signalling without any negative outcomes. Or it does happen and this can help take steps against it. There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago
> There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality. This. The US is not here for you to reproduce your oppressive hierarchy from the old country, no matter what hierarchy it was or what country it was from.
- rramadass 3y ago
  An admirable sentiment but essentially useless in solving a problem which is actually more complicated and nuanced than a superficial reading might lead one to believe. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774
rramadass 3y ago
>I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste. From the article; Suhag Shukla, the executive director of advocacy group Hindu American Foundation, said that the bill would give California businesses a “license to discriminate against South Asians”. The group has lobbied against the bill, saying its passage would trigger a rise in Hinduphobia. It is a very nuanced problem fanned by vested interests and hence passing a blanket bill without understanding the issues involved can actually do more harm than good. See https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-how-dalit-advocacy-group-equality-labs-portrays-hindu-religion-as-irredeemable-in-us-12440202.html https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-ho... There have been many articles submitted previously on this subject. You might want to study the reports done by Carnegie Endowment on Indian-Americans listed in my previous comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418
- lawlessone 3y ago
  >said that the bill would give California businesses a “license to discriminate against South Asians” How?
  - rramadass 3y ago
    Read the article on Firstpost.com that i have linked to above.
    - daswerth 3y ago
      > very nuanced problem fanned by vested interests and hence passing a blanket bill without understanding the issues involved can actually do more harm than good I'm very interested to understand the "more harm than good" part, but the firstpost article you linked doesn't touch on them at all. The article seems to be focused on how the special interests groups are pushing their special interests.
      - rramadass 3y ago
        Huh? The article explicitly states certain problems from which further inferences can be made. Some excerpts below; There is a concern that Hindu and Indian employees will now be looked at with suspicion because employers simply won’t want to deal with frivolous lawsuits. From the get-go, CoHNA made it clear that they abhor caste discrimination. Dalits and “lower” caste members of CoHNA were vocal that this law would institutionalize the very thing Equality Labs claimed to be fighting. CoHNA made the strong case that although the language of the ordinance identifies caste among many religions and ethnicities, Hindus are most closely associated with caste. It very clearly paints a target on the backs of Hindu Americans and Indians and creates a presumption of guilt. There are no clear ways to identify caste or implement anti-caste discrimination laws in America. Sara Nelson voted “No”. She asked whether the Seattle City Council had any data to support Equality Labs and Sawant’s claims of “widespread and systemic” caste discrimination. She also made the point that without ways to identify caste, there would be no way to implement it properly. How exactly do you determine who is an “upper” caste and who is a “lower caste”? And if you can’t determine what caste someone belongs to, how do you litigate that case? Even if you could identify someone’s caste, what would the city do if someone from a “lower caste” attempted to sue someone from another “lower caste”? If someone chooses not to identify with a caste and someone accuses them of caste discrimination, will the city of Seattle force a caste upon them? Thankfully, we can reference a rigorous study from the Carnegie Endowment which largely disagrees with Equality Labs’ findings. Instead, they found that there is very little caste identification among Indian Americans, especially in those born in America and that there is even less discrimination actually experienced. It is very far from widespread and systemic. This study acknowledges Equality Labs and criticizes the findings and methodology, most notably that Equality Labs simply removed responses where people did not identify with a caste at all. Without guidelines on how it will be implemented, it has the opportunity for great misuse. Hindu children will now be looked at with suspicion in college admissions if they choose not to identify as caste because Equality Labs says that this is a mark of privilege and indicates “higher caste” or “oppressor caste”. Hindu and Indian employees will now be looked at with suspicion because employers simply won’t want to deal with frivolous lawsuits, And finally, it paints the entire Hindu religion in the way Equality Labs would like – as irredeemable and worthy of dismantling as Soundararajan has stated in multiple interviews and tweets.

AnimalMuppet 3y ago

> There is no situation that allowing discrimination by caste to continue is a benefit to anyone other than those that are at the top of the caste system. That is inherently against western social views and anthema to equality. This. The US is not here for you to reproduce your oppressive hierarchy from the old country, no matter what hierarchy it was or what country it was from.

rramadass 3y ago
An admirable sentiment but essentially useless in solving a problem which is actually more complicated and nuanced than a superficial reading might lead one to believe. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37692617 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37691774

rramadass 3y ago

>I can't see any negative outcomes from legally preventing discrimination by caste. From the article; Suhag Shukla, the executive director of advocacy group Hindu American Foundation, said that the bill would give California businesses a “license to discriminate against South Asians”. The group has lobbied against the bill, saying its passage would trigger a rise in Hinduphobia. It is a very nuanced problem fanned by vested interests and hence passing a blanket bill without understanding the issues involved can actually do more harm than good. See https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-how-dalit-advocacy-group-equality-labs-portrays-hindu-religion-as-irredeemable-in-us-12440202.html https://www.firstpost.com/opinion/a-discriminatory-affair-ho... There have been many articles submitted previously on this subject. You might want to study the reports done by Carnegie Endowment on Indian-Americans listed in my previous comment here - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37333418

lawlessone 3y ago
>said that the bill would give California businesses a “license to discriminate against South Asians” How?
- rramadass 3y ago
  Read the article on Firstpost.com that i have linked to above.
  - daswerth 3y ago
    > very nuanced problem fanned by vested interests and hence passing a blanket bill without understanding the issues involved can actually do more harm than good I'm very interested to understand the "more harm than good" part, but the firstpost article you linked doesn't touch on them at all. The article seems to be focused on how the special interests groups are pushing their special interests.
    - rramadass 3y ago
      Huh? The article explicitly states certain problems from which further inferences can be made. Some excerpts below; There is a concern that Hindu and Indian employees will now be looked at with suspicion because employers simply won’t want to deal with frivolous lawsuits. From the get-go, CoHNA made it clear that they abhor caste discrimination. Dalits and “lower” caste members of CoHNA were vocal that this law would institutionalize the very thing Equality Labs claimed to be fighting. CoHNA made the strong case that although the language of the ordinance identifies caste among many religions and ethnicities, Hindus are most closely associated with caste. It very clearly paints a target on the backs of Hindu Americans and Indians and creates a presumption of guilt. There are no clear ways to identify caste or implement anti-caste discrimination laws in America. Sara Nelson voted “No”. She asked whether the Seattle City Council had any data to support Equality Labs and Sawant’s claims of “widespread and systemic” caste discrimination. She also made the point that without ways to identify caste, there would be no way to implement it properly. How exactly do you determine who is an “upper” caste and who is a “lower caste”? And if you can’t determine what caste someone belongs to, how do you litigate that case? Even if you could identify someone’s caste, what would the city do if someone from a “lower caste” attempted to sue someone from another “lower caste”? If someone chooses not to identify with a caste and someone accuses them of caste discrimination, will the city of Seattle force a caste upon them? Thankfully, we can reference a rigorous study from the Carnegie Endowment which largely disagrees with Equality Labs’ findings. Instead, they found that there is very little caste identification among Indian Americans, especially in those born in America and that there is even less discrimination actually experienced. It is very far from widespread and systemic. This study acknowledges Equality Labs and criticizes the findings and methodology, most notably that Equality Labs simply removed responses where people did not identify with a caste at all. Without guidelines on how it will be implemented, it has the opportunity for great misuse. Hindu children will now be looked at with suspicion in college admissions if they choose not to identify as caste because Equality Labs says that this is a mark of privilege and indicates “higher caste” or “oppressor caste”. Hindu and Indian employees will now be looked at with suspicion because employers simply won’t want to deal with frivolous lawsuits, And finally, it paints the entire Hindu religion in the way Equality Labs would like – as irredeemable and worthy of dismantling as Soundararajan has stated in multiple interviews and tweets.