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> It seems really hard to get this 100% fair It is, for all the reasons you mentioned, and nobody is aiming for that. He just found and demonstrated a cheat (b

by dktp 3y ago

> It seems really hard to get this 100% fair It is, for all the reasons you mentioned, and nobody is aiming for that. He just found and demonstrated a cheat (bug) that the platform itself should have no issue detecting - changing weight mid race Zwift uploads race results to ZwiftPower and removes any cyclists that are outliers and it assumes are cheating. 8w/kg would be a big outlier. But it looks like the platform calculates w/kg based on the cyclists' ending weight. So if you change your weight to 25kg right after the race begins and back to 65kg before the end - while cycling at 200w, then Zwift's cheat detection system calculates your w/kg as ~3w/kg, which is completely reasonable and would not get caught. But cycling at 8w/kg is far far faster than 3w/kg The article is overblown. He's not trying to end cheating altogether. He found a bug and demonstrated it

eesmith 3y ago
> The article is overblown. He's not trying to end cheating altogether. He found a bug and demonstrated it The article says he did more than demonstrate a bug: "He became a founding member of FERA, the Fair E-Racing Alliance, where he works with 25 other volunteers to assess suspected cheats across ~60 online cycling teams. The list of ways to cheat on Zwift he amassed? It’s now up to 127."
- dktp 3y ago
  I think the article is written in a over-sensationalistic way and I would take it with a grain of salt, but also possible that he's really into finding bugs. Based on the reddit post, he's definitely really into racing on Zwift As a casual Zwift enjoyer, I'm just vaguely familiar with the story, but now I ended up digging the initial (now deleted) article: https://web.archive.org/web/20220223133105/https://zweight241477032.wordpress.com/2022/02/23/the-ultimate-undetectable-weight-cheat-to-win-all-races-on-zwift/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220223133105/https://zweight24... And some reddit post from him, explaining why the article was deleted and his disappointment in Zwift as a company: https://old.reddit.com/r/Zwift/comments/t0n5be/the_article_zwift_hq_doesnt_want_you_to_see/hycwwts/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Zwift/comments/t0n5be/the_article_z...
Lio 3y ago
The whole Zwift w/kg category system is inherently flawed even without cheating. If you're in a lower category and right near the w/kg limit you could be 70kg and racing against 100kg riders. If the cat limit was 3.2w/kg you could have 224w a maximum vs 320w for the heavier rider. On the flats they'll destroy you, in the sprints they'll destroy you and on the descents they'll destroy. On the climbs? They'll hang right with you because you both climb at 3.2w/kg. If you get fitter you'll just be bumped up to a cat with higher limits but the same issue. Unless you're an elite cat A rider, where there's no limits, you should treat the races as just a fitness activity. The heaviest fit rider will always have a massive advantage regardless of the course. So why "race" at all?
- mariusor 3y ago
  Isn't that very similar to how real life racing is? The light riders almost always are at a disadvantage.
  - Lio 3y ago
    No not really. Categories are done on points for how you place in previous races. If you win then no matter what you weigh or how much power you put out you move up a category. Any rider with enough power to ride you off their wheel would be promoted until they couldn't do that any more. They don't get a special exemption to ride in races with weaker riders simply because they're heavy like on Zwift. It would the same issue in reverse if they simply grouped riders by absolute wattage without using weight as a component. The light riders would always win in the hilly races and hold their own on the flats. Also weird. What Zwift needs is an Elo system based on results. Just like in real life.
    - mariusor 3y ago
      The pro peloton doesn't use an ELO system. There is a points system based on races placement, but outside of the team promotion/demotion every three years it's basically useless, especially for the individual riders.
  - pmontra 3y ago

by dktp 3y ago

eesmith 3y ago

> The article is overblown. He's not trying to end cheating altogether. He found a bug and demonstrated it The article says he did more than demonstrate a bug: "He became a founding member of FERA, the Fair E-Racing Alliance, where he works with 25 other volunteers to assess suspected cheats across ~60 online cycling teams. The list of ways to cheat on Zwift he amassed? It’s now up to 127."

dktp 3y ago
I think the article is written in a over-sensationalistic way and I would take it with a grain of salt, but also possible that he's really into finding bugs. Based on the reddit post, he's definitely really into racing on Zwift As a casual Zwift enjoyer, I'm just vaguely familiar with the story, but now I ended up digging the initial (now deleted) article: https://web.archive.org/web/20220223133105/https://zweight241477032.wordpress.com/2022/02/23/the-ultimate-undetectable-weight-cheat-to-win-all-races-on-zwift/ https://web.archive.org/web/20220223133105/https://zweight24... And some reddit post from him, explaining why the article was deleted and his disappointment in Zwift as a company: https://old.reddit.com/r/Zwift/comments/t0n5be/the_article_zwift_hq_doesnt_want_you_to_see/hycwwts/ https://old.reddit.com/r/Zwift/comments/t0n5be/the_article_z...

Lio 3y ago

The whole Zwift w/kg category system is inherently flawed even without cheating. If you're in a lower category and right near the w/kg limit you could be 70kg and racing against 100kg riders. If the cat limit was 3.2w/kg you could have 224w a maximum vs 320w for the heavier rider. On the flats they'll destroy you, in the sprints they'll destroy you and on the descents they'll destroy. On the climbs? They'll hang right with you because you both climb at 3.2w/kg. If you get fitter you'll just be bumped up to a cat with higher limits but the same issue. Unless you're an elite cat A rider, where there's no limits, you should treat the races as just a fitness activity. The heaviest fit rider will always have a massive advantage regardless of the course. So why "race" at all?

mariusor 3y ago
Isn't that very similar to how real life racing is? The light riders almost always are at a disadvantage.
- Lio 3y ago
  No not really. Categories are done on points for how you place in previous races. If you win then no matter what you weigh or how much power you put out you move up a category. Any rider with enough power to ride you off their wheel would be promoted until they couldn't do that any more. They don't get a special exemption to ride in races with weaker riders simply because they're heavy like on Zwift. It would the same issue in reverse if they simply grouped riders by absolute wattage without using weight as a component. The light riders would always win in the hilly races and hold their own on the flats. Also weird. What Zwift needs is an Elo system based on results. Just like in real life.
  - mariusor 3y ago
    The pro peloton doesn't use an ELO system. There is a points system based on races placement, but outside of the team promotion/demotion every three years it's basically useless, especially for the individual riders.
- pmontra 3y ago