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This book is not really addressing the more common "is math real" question of it being empirical or invented. For an interesting take on that question, see the

This book is not really addressing the more common "is math real" question of it being empirical or invented. For an interesting take on that question, see the 1st section of the 2nd part of Daniel Shanks' Solved and Unsolved Problems in Number Theory. He makes some interesting points about the old Pythagorean views

dr_dshiv 3y ago
Pythagorean ideas—- well, it has been some of the most enriching philosophy I’ve ever encountered. It’s a rabbit hole, for sure.
- eru 3y ago
  It's interesting that mathematicians, when asked philosophically, might have all kinds of interesting and nuanced ideas about this topic. But when you let them get back to their mathematics, they behave as if they believed deep down in their heart that mathematics exists independently of the observer. (It's a working attitude that works well in practice. Just like a heliocentric world view works well enough for most celestial navigation you can do without computers.)
  - mbork_pl 3y ago
    Sorry to break it to you, but most mathematicians don't give a s*t. Even worse, a large percentage of mathematicians (not sure if "most", but I'm afraid yes) do not usually have "interesting and nuanced ideas" (nor opinions) on anything.
  - quickthrower2 3y ago
    I am waiting for the universe to do something non-mathematical. There is no reason to believe it can't :-)
hhs 3y ago
> This book is not really addressing the more common "is math real" question of it being empirical or invented. Please note, this is mentioned at the beginning of the review: "I settled in to read the book “Is Math Real?” expecting to become embroiled in the age-old controversary of whether math is invented or math is discovered. Instead, I found myself confronted with two viewpoints of mathematics: one view is that mathematics is a stiff and fixed set of rules and algorithms while the other view is that mathematics is flexible and our understanding of math comes from questioning of why mathematics functions so effectively. The premise of “Is Math Real?” is that people have different emotions about math. Some love the math and have little difficulty determining the correct answer to a problem while others loathe and dislike the math and have a difficult time ascertaining the correct response. Many times, a student is humbled or chastised for asking ‘a stupid question’. Author Cheng states that there are no stupid questions. In fact, the most profound concepts in mathematics are learned from asking the simplest of questions.”
wmal 3y ago
For me, both questions "is math real" and "is math discovered or invented" miss the point. Math is a model of the universe in the same sense that a world map is a model of the earth. Is a map real? Well, it is. I can see it on my desk. Is the earth real? It is too, but they are not the same. In that sense map is also not "real". Is the map discovered? Well, it uses data that was mostly discovered, but some parts were "invented" or edited for simplification for the map to be useful. The real question should be "is math useful" as a model. We all know most basic parts are, but some mathematicians forget that they are dealing with an imperfect model and keep finding paradoxes. It's like we would forget the imperfections caused by the mercator projection and be surprised the real world distances are not proportional to map distances. That's the reason I always liked engineering more than maths. When programming you always "import" the libraries you need and find useful for the task. You only make sure that they are compatible with each other. Mathematicians "import" all axioms, call them maths, and are surprised they get paradoxes.
- readenough 3y ago
  I think the question should go even deeper. There are so many fundamental axioms that must be accepted on faith alone. The question I usually start with is "Can anyone prove that numbers exist outside of our imagination?" I not talking simply about perception. Even I believe that if I perceive that I am hit with a brick then the brick exists. We have no senses that can detect numbers. When I asked this question to any of the several mathematicians that I know, the answer has always been ~ Yeah, good question ~ and then they move on.
  - wmal 3y ago
    Why do you think we should go deeper with pointless questions? What would you do with the answer if someone provided one?
  - jplusequalt 3y ago
    Feynman has some useful words about this phenomenon of always wanting to dig deeper: https://youtu.be/36GT2zI8lVA?si=Boiqod3GXHVMyE_s https://youtu.be/36GT2zI8lVA?si=Boiqod3GXHVMyE_s
wheelerof4te 3y ago
Math is invented with a purpose to help humans understand the economy and the world around them. Economy, in turn, was also invented to help humans organize their resource use. The more humans understood the world, the more they tried to apply math and other sciences (also invented by humans) in order to explain it. It's not even a question. Two apples will always be two apples. It's just that, without math, it would be "an apple and another apple next to it".

dr_dshiv 3y ago

Pythagorean ideas—- well, it has been some of the most enriching philosophy I’ve ever encountered. It’s a rabbit hole, for sure.

eru 3y ago
It's interesting that mathematicians, when asked philosophically, might have all kinds of interesting and nuanced ideas about this topic. But when you let them get back to their mathematics, they behave as if they believed deep down in their heart that mathematics exists independently of the observer. (It's a working attitude that works well in practice. Just like a heliocentric world view works well enough for most celestial navigation you can do without computers.)
- mbork_pl 3y ago
  Sorry to break it to you, but most mathematicians don't give a s*t. Even worse, a large percentage of mathematicians (not sure if "most", but I'm afraid yes) do not usually have "interesting and nuanced ideas" (nor opinions) on anything.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  I am waiting for the universe to do something non-mathematical. There is no reason to believe it can't :-)

hhs 3y ago

> This book is not really addressing the more common "is math real" question of it being empirical or invented. Please note, this is mentioned at the beginning of the review: "I settled in to read the book “Is Math Real?” expecting to become embroiled in the age-old controversary of whether math is invented or math is discovered. Instead, I found myself confronted with two viewpoints of mathematics: one view is that mathematics is a stiff and fixed set of rules and algorithms while the other view is that mathematics is flexible and our understanding of math comes from questioning of why mathematics functions so effectively. The premise of “Is Math Real?” is that people have different emotions about math. Some love the math and have little difficulty determining the correct answer to a problem while others loathe and dislike the math and have a difficult time ascertaining the correct response. Many times, a student is humbled or chastised for asking ‘a stupid question’. Author Cheng states that there are no stupid questions. In fact, the most profound concepts in mathematics are learned from asking the simplest of questions.”

wmal 3y ago

For me, both questions "is math real" and "is math discovered or invented" miss the point. Math is a model of the universe in the same sense that a world map is a model of the earth. Is a map real? Well, it is. I can see it on my desk. Is the earth real? It is too, but they are not the same. In that sense map is also not "real". Is the map discovered? Well, it uses data that was mostly discovered, but some parts were "invented" or edited for simplification for the map to be useful. The real question should be "is math useful" as a model. We all know most basic parts are, but some mathematicians forget that they are dealing with an imperfect model and keep finding paradoxes. It's like we would forget the imperfections caused by the mercator projection and be surprised the real world distances are not proportional to map distances. That's the reason I always liked engineering more than maths. When programming you always "import" the libraries you need and find useful for the task. You only make sure that they are compatible with each other. Mathematicians "import" all axioms, call them maths, and are surprised they get paradoxes.

readenough 3y ago
I think the question should go even deeper. There are so many fundamental axioms that must be accepted on faith alone. The question I usually start with is "Can anyone prove that numbers exist outside of our imagination?" I not talking simply about perception. Even I believe that if I perceive that I am hit with a brick then the brick exists. We have no senses that can detect numbers. When I asked this question to any of the several mathematicians that I know, the answer has always been ~ Yeah, good question ~ and then they move on.
- wmal 3y ago
  Why do you think we should go deeper with pointless questions? What would you do with the answer if someone provided one?
- jplusequalt 3y ago
  Feynman has some useful words about this phenomenon of always wanting to dig deeper: https://youtu.be/36GT2zI8lVA?si=Boiqod3GXHVMyE_s https://youtu.be/36GT2zI8lVA?si=Boiqod3GXHVMyE_s

wheelerof4te 3y ago

Math is invented with a purpose to help humans understand the economy and the world around them. Economy, in turn, was also invented to help humans organize their resource use. The more humans understood the world, the more they tried to apply math and other sciences (also invented by humans) in order to explain it. It's not even a question. Two apples will always be two apples. It's just that, without math, it would be "an apple and another apple next to it".