19 ms·

I also find peoples generatal non-response strange, though, I don't find Grusch's testimony that compelling: he didn't actually see anything, or really have any

by robdar 3y ago

I also find peoples generatal non-response strange, though, I don't find Grusch's testimony that compelling: he didn't actually see anything, or really have any evidence. I find the US Navy pilot observations to be both more credible, and more interesting. Those I know who have looked into it, both IRl and online, both seem to take any debunking of the videos by Mick West to be the final word on the subject, but to me the videos are just short views into much longer encounters viewed by multiple people. The response of the public at large seems both muted, and a bit off. US Navy pilots claim to see UFOs? The response largely seems to be "They're just Chinese spy balloons or something, who cares, yawn". But then actual Chinese spy balloons show up and the public/media loses their minds over it.

mcpackieh 3y ago
Navy pilot David Fravor, who has the most compelling story of any of them, has also admitted to perpetrating UFO hoaxes on people for shits and giggles. UFOlogists have decided to lean into America's "troop worship", holding up military personnel as paragons of virtue and honesty because respect muh troops, to turn these pilot witnesses into unimpeachable evidence. But David Fravor admitted on camera that he thought it was funny to create false UFO sightings with his plane. When this same man then starts making claims about UFOs "but totally for real this time", it takes serious credulity to take his claims at face value.
- seanw444 3y ago
  I'd find it more concerning if it came from someone else close to Fravor that he'd trolled people before, but not from Fravor himself. He spoke about it on a public interview. Obviously it's not something he's worried about being known, and he's not worried about it hurting his credibility. Sure, it seems unlikely that someone who has hoaxed UFOs in the past would be the one to have an actual encounter, but UFOs are pretty common in conversation and on peoples' minds, especially in the last couple decades. I'm sure many pilots have wondered what it might be like to encounter a UFO.
- robdar 3y ago
  Fravors "Hoax" involved flying F/A-18E Super Hornets at low level, at night, over campfires they could see along their route and lighting their after burners. This was done in areas like Nellis where there are a lot of military jet activity. Anyone watching from the ground with any modicum of exposure to military jets would have immediately known from the site and sound exactly what it was. He was putting on a show. Did he otherwise publish videos, pictures, articles, or other media to try to otherwise "dupe" the public into believing that these were "UFOS"? No. The context of the discussion in Fravors interview he was more jokingly describing some of the cowboy stunts that military pilots do that might be mistakingly interpreted as UFOs.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    > He was putting on a show. By his account he was deliberately creating fake UFO sightings. > The context of the discussion in Fravors interview he was more jokingly describing some of the cowboy stunts that military pilots do that might be mistakingly interpreted as UFOs. That may have been his intent in sharing the story, so what? Obviously he intended for the story to increase his credibility, but that doesn't mean it does. His story reveals that he thinks UFO hoaxing is funny. Or... he made up the story for some rhetorical reason or to impress Joe Rogan, which would make him a liar. Imagine a used car salesman tells you "I know what you probably think about used car salesmen, and it's true that I've ripped some people off before. But in your case I'm going to be straight up and give you a great deal." This is a tactic taught in sales and persuasion books designed to make you trust the salesman; by admitting to some past transgressions they hope to make you feel as though they're being open and honest with you. But what does it actually tell you? Either the story of past transgressions is real, in which case the salesman has an admitted history of scamming people, or the story is made up and the salesman is lying to you to manipulate you. Either way you slice it, it's a huge red flag.
    - robdar 3y ago
      The context of the story in that JRE episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ at about the 49:30 point) is "some things are explainable, here is an example" But, if Fravors story isn't credible because of that, to me it doesn't change much: - The "tic tac" video recorded from that encounter wasn't recorded when Fravor was in the air, he was back at the carrier. It was a follow on flight that had their aircraft equipped with targetting pods. - Fravor's aircraft had a backseat WSO who witnessed what Fravor saw, to my knowledge that officer hasn't spoken in public or denied Fravor's story - There was a second aircraft in the air when Fravor had that encounter, also with a pilot and WSO. The pilot of that second aircraft has interviewed confirming Fravor's story. - Radar operators from the Princeton operating the AEGIS radar have interviewed saying that they also saw the objects. - To my knowledge no one, either in the air, on the carrier, or in the air wing has stepped forward and claimed that Fravor, or anyone else was lying, or making up stories.

by robdar 3y ago

mcpackieh 3y ago

Navy pilot David Fravor, who has the most compelling story of any of them, has also admitted to perpetrating UFO hoaxes on people for shits and giggles. UFOlogists have decided to lean into America's "troop worship", holding up military personnel as paragons of virtue and honesty because respect muh troops, to turn these pilot witnesses into unimpeachable evidence. But David Fravor admitted on camera that he thought it was funny to create false UFO sightings with his plane. When this same man then starts making claims about UFOs "but totally for real this time", it takes serious credulity to take his claims at face value.

seanw444 3y ago
I'd find it more concerning if it came from someone else close to Fravor that he'd trolled people before, but not from Fravor himself. He spoke about it on a public interview. Obviously it's not something he's worried about being known, and he's not worried about it hurting his credibility. Sure, it seems unlikely that someone who has hoaxed UFOs in the past would be the one to have an actual encounter, but UFOs are pretty common in conversation and on peoples' minds, especially in the last couple decades. I'm sure many pilots have wondered what it might be like to encounter a UFO.
robdar 3y ago
Fravors "Hoax" involved flying F/A-18E Super Hornets at low level, at night, over campfires they could see along their route and lighting their after burners. This was done in areas like Nellis where there are a lot of military jet activity. Anyone watching from the ground with any modicum of exposure to military jets would have immediately known from the site and sound exactly what it was. He was putting on a show. Did he otherwise publish videos, pictures, articles, or other media to try to otherwise "dupe" the public into believing that these were "UFOS"? No. The context of the discussion in Fravors interview he was more jokingly describing some of the cowboy stunts that military pilots do that might be mistakingly interpreted as UFOs.
- mcpackieh 3y ago
  > He was putting on a show. By his account he was deliberately creating fake UFO sightings. > The context of the discussion in Fravors interview he was more jokingly describing some of the cowboy stunts that military pilots do that might be mistakingly interpreted as UFOs. That may have been his intent in sharing the story, so what? Obviously he intended for the story to increase his credibility, but that doesn't mean it does. His story reveals that he thinks UFO hoaxing is funny. Or... he made up the story for some rhetorical reason or to impress Joe Rogan, which would make him a liar. Imagine a used car salesman tells you "I know what you probably think about used car salesmen, and it's true that I've ripped some people off before. But in your case I'm going to be straight up and give you a great deal." This is a tactic taught in sales and persuasion books designed to make you trust the salesman; by admitting to some past transgressions they hope to make you feel as though they're being open and honest with you. But what does it actually tell you? Either the story of past transgressions is real, in which case the salesman has an admitted history of scamming people, or the story is made up and the salesman is lying to you to manipulate you. Either way you slice it, it's a huge red flag.
  - robdar 3y ago
    The context of the story in that JRE episode (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eco2s3-0zsQ at about the 49:30 point) is "some things are explainable, here is an example" But, if Fravors story isn't credible because of that, to me it doesn't change much: - The "tic tac" video recorded from that encounter wasn't recorded when Fravor was in the air, he was back at the carrier. It was a follow on flight that had their aircraft equipped with targetting pods. - Fravor's aircraft had a backseat WSO who witnessed what Fravor saw, to my knowledge that officer hasn't spoken in public or denied Fravor's story - There was a second aircraft in the air when Fravor had that encounter, also with a pilot and WSO. The pilot of that second aircraft has interviewed confirming Fravor's story. - Radar operators from the Princeton operating the AEGIS radar have interviewed saying that they also saw the objects. - To my knowledge no one, either in the air, on the carrier, or in the air wing has stepped forward and claimed that Fravor, or anyone else was lying, or making up stories.