6 ms·

SmartKnob – Haptic input knob with software-defined endstops and virtual detents

311 points by e3a8 3y ago

_Microft 3y ago
Past submission from 2022 with a dozen comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30646371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30646371
- e3a8 3y ago
  Tried searching by link before submission, it showed no results
  - Already__Taken 3y ago
    the resubmit is worthwhile even for just the motor stocking updates
    - sschueller 3y ago
      Exactly, last time it was posted here there were no motors available. I checked back a few times but there wasn't anything that worked. Glad to see there is a working option now. Definitely a project I want to make when I have some free time.
  - _Microft 3y ago
    No worries, this is definitely worth another submission. I pointed out the earlier one because the creator of SmartKnob had answered some questions there already.
riffic 3y ago
there was a microsoft surface dial, not sure if that ever took off or not. I thought there was another product that had this form factor
- codetrotter 3y ago
  Another product that looks slightly similar to this, but behaves differently: 3Dconnexion SpaceNavigator https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700028-SpaceNavigator-3D-Mouse/dp/B000LB7G00 https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700028-SpaceNavigator... And then there are the bigger siblings to that, which basically add a bunch of buttons around the SpaceNavigator: 3Dconnexion SpaceMouse Pro https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700040-SpaceMouse-Pro-Mouse/dp/B006GPZ17K/ https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700040-SpaceMouse-Pro... 3Dconnexion SpaceMouse Enterprise https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-SpaceMouse-Enterprise-31-Teclas-3dx-700056/dp/B01ESQE2JQ/ https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-SpaceMouse-Enterprise-31-...
  - all2 3y ago
    There was a guy that made his own and open sourced it: https://youtu.be/iHBgNGnTiK4 https://youtu.be/iHBgNGnTiK4
  - numpad0 3y ago
    3Dconnexion mice don't rotate, they are joysticks with twist and push/pull, just shaped like a dial rather than that on a jet fighter. Surface Dial is a scroll wheel to replicate and improve on features in Wacom drawing tablets that its host device competes with, so it's completely different.
    - codetrotter 3y ago
      I know. That’s why I said it looks slightly similar and behaves differently.
- ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
  Surface dial was very cool. I haven't heard much about it, though. Wouldn't surprise me to find that there may be patent clashes with this project. Most hardware is heavily patented with highly enforceable patents. It's a damn minefield. One of the problems with "Cool UX," is that it is too "in your face." I know of what I speak. I have designed "cool" UX elements for most of my career. It's a mistake I keep making. I guess I like the challenge. One of my latest efforts, is a "prize wheel" spinner for Swift (iOS/iPadOS, via UIKit)[0]. I have considered creating a SwiftUI version of it (and even started work on that), but I can't justify it. It's really very lightweight, high Quality, and easy to use. I keep on not using it in my projects, because it's too "attention-grabbing." There's a reason that waitstaff usually wear black. [0] https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_Spinner https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_Spinner
heliostatic 3y ago
This is great! I've been thinking about building something similar for sleep training with my toddler--need something that works in a dark room by feel and has variable intervals. Love it.
seabass-labrax 3y ago
I absolutely love that this is open source hardware; there have been multiple circuits available on the web for this kind of peripheral, but nothing even approaching the level of polish that this has. If the designer happens to be here, I have a question regarding the circuit. Is there any protection against voltage produced by a user's rotation of the knob? The TMC6300 IC that the schematic shows is directly connected to the BDCM without any intermediate circuitry, but the only 'protections' listed in its datasheet are related to failures related to the motor being used as a motor, not as a generator.
- scottbez1 3y ago
  Designer here - I will admit that I just do this as a bit of a hobby and I'm not an EE, so I don't have a great answer for you, but generally speaking since this is a high resistance/low KV motor and there's only so fast you could spin it by hand realistically, I think the voltages you could generate that way shouldn't be so high as to cause damage in most cases. The TMC6300 datasheet does show it directly connected to the BLDC motor so that's what I based this design on. There are probably some best practices that I'm missing though (diode on the main supply maybe?), so if anyone knowledgeable wants to chime in, I'm all ears! (Or I suppose pull requests are welcome too).
  - Ecco 3y ago
    Interactions like these are the reason why HN is so worth reading!
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    Thanks for the swift response! I've been interested in haptic feedback for a long time, but so far have not come across any general way to calculate the acceptable power dissipation for a given motor and driver circuit. Physical controls have so much to offer in ease-of-use, but the chief downside of them currently is that there is no easy 'two-way binding'.
    - K0balt 3y ago
croes 3y ago
I definitely need a use case for that
- squarefoot 3y ago
  Control panels for various hardware. I could think of many uses in music synthesizers for example where access to many parameters for quick modification during live performance can make the difference.
  - scottbez1 3y ago
    On a related music/audio note, I recently came across videos of the teenage engineering TP-7 which looks like a really cool application of similar haptic feedback concepts. Unfortunately it's out of the price range where I can justify picking one up just to tinker around with it, so I've only seen videos of it so far.
    - poyu 3y ago
      The TP-7’s disc does have haptic feedback in the menus, it clicks and resists based on the context. It’s a solid design.
  - Perenti 3y ago
    I have a Roland/Boss GT-100 guitar processor (a big pedal board), which features 8 programmable/assignable open-ended rotary knobs (open ended as they can just be kept rotating without hitting some kind of stop). It would be great to be able to _feel_ hitting certain settings when brushing them with my foot, without having to look at all. As a musician, I think the introduction of haptics to electric/electronic instruments allows you to move in unexplored aural directions, which is sometimes very musical.
- all2 3y ago
  DIY smart thermostat? One button/rotary knob stereo interface?
- frankus 3y ago
mattclarkdotnet 3y ago
Wonderful to see such a well documented open source hardware project! It does show though how much more difficult these are than software projects. 3d design and printing, hardware sourcing issues, the need for careful component selection, very poor support for automation of the toolchain, etc etc. As a minor hardware tinkerer this is both impressive and daunting. Bravo!
- bryancoxwell 3y ago
  Not to mention the cost of failure and iteration.
  - fest 3y ago
    It's all relative. It has gotten at least an order of magnitude less expensive over the last 10-15 years- 3D printing, low cost PCB manufacturers, availability and cost of automated machine tools like CO2 laser-cutters. It has actually gotten to a point where often time is the most "expensive" component of hobby/open-source hardware projects- while the cost of CAD software has decreased (mostly due to competition and increased demand that allows to spread the development cost over larger customer base), the productivity of CAD-related tasks has not increased much, if at all.
    - Loic 3y ago
      After many years of being a father of 3 active kids, you can remove the "often" in your sentence :-D
- Jabrov 3y ago
  test
babl-yc 3y ago
Apparently this and many other cool projects were demoed at Open Sauce in SF https://opensauce.live/ https://opensauce.live/
justinlloyd 3y ago
Why hello there. I am building a digital jukebox with physical controls and was looking for a few different knob like controls to use to shuffle through tracks. Definitely going to be using this in the project. Thanks for a well documented and Open Source piece of hardware.
leetrout 3y ago
These would be awesome for flight simming.
- Fuzzwah 3y ago
  Being a sim racing guy, my initial thought was for brake bias / traction control / fuel map.
KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago
Can the parts be swapped out for automotive grade versions? I need it for the new Tesla Highland since it doesn't have a shifter
stavros 3y ago
Ooh this project is among the most impressive ones I've ever seen. I saw it years ago and I still remember it (and want one) from time to time. Well done.
TaylorAlexander 3y ago
Love to see open source hardware on HN. Great job with this one! If I were not overwhelmed with projects this one would be on my list.
dvdkon 3y ago
I have been looking for good-feeling large rotary encoders and this looks like the best option available. Having software-based detents means that they are perfectly aligned with the actual trigger, besides all the other flexibility demonstrated. Sadly it's too big and costly to put into a dimmer switch, but maybe I'll get it as a general peripheral.
Jemm 3y ago
The flight/space sim community would love this.
iAkashPaul 3y ago
SimpleFOC is one of the best things I learnt after graduation! So many projects can make use of the features, hardware & software both.
yencabulator 3y ago
Make sure to watch the demo videos, they're great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip641WmY4pA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip641WmY4pA and so on.
steeve 3y ago
I'd love to build a thermostat out of that. That seems like the perfect use case.
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  I don't know how much you adjust your thermostat, but I would want more excuses to use it - something more interactive such as a TV remote! But it would be interesting to have a thermostat knob that 'resists' your twisting based on the estimated energy usage to produce your requested temperature, as an intuitive way of conveying heating/cooling costs.
jdcarter 3y ago
Brilliant execution. I see so many knob-based inputs on home appliances where they have physical detents but the input encoder does not match the detents. Say you turn the appliance on, it starts at setting one, and you need to turn the dial to setting three. Any reasonable person would expect one physical click to take you to setting two, another click would take you to setting three. But I keep seeing devices where the detents are completely arbitrary and you have no idea how many “clicks” it takes to get to the setting you want. This makes the detents actively misleading.

311 points by e3a8 3y ago

Past submission from 2022 with a dozen comments: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30646371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30646371

e3a8 3y ago
Tried searching by link before submission, it showed no results
- Already__Taken 3y ago
  the resubmit is worthwhile even for just the motor stocking updates
  - sschueller 3y ago
    Exactly, last time it was posted here there were no motors available. I checked back a few times but there wasn't anything that worked. Glad to see there is a working option now. Definitely a project I want to make when I have some free time.
- _Microft 3y ago
  No worries, this is definitely worth another submission. I pointed out the earlier one because the creator of SmartKnob had answered some questions there already.

riffic 3y ago

there was a microsoft surface dial, not sure if that ever took off or not. I thought there was another product that had this form factor

codetrotter 3y ago
Another product that looks slightly similar to this, but behaves differently: 3Dconnexion SpaceNavigator https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700028-SpaceNavigator-3D-Mouse/dp/B000LB7G00 https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700028-SpaceNavigator... And then there are the bigger siblings to that, which basically add a bunch of buttons around the SpaceNavigator: 3Dconnexion SpaceMouse Pro https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700040-SpaceMouse-Pro-Mouse/dp/B006GPZ17K/ https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-3DX-700040-SpaceMouse-Pro... 3Dconnexion SpaceMouse Enterprise https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-SpaceMouse-Enterprise-31-Teclas-3dx-700056/dp/B01ESQE2JQ/ https://www.amazon.com/3Dconnexion-SpaceMouse-Enterprise-31-...
- all2 3y ago
  There was a guy that made his own and open sourced it: https://youtu.be/iHBgNGnTiK4 https://youtu.be/iHBgNGnTiK4
- numpad0 3y ago
  3Dconnexion mice don't rotate, they are joysticks with twist and push/pull, just shaped like a dial rather than that on a jet fighter. Surface Dial is a scroll wheel to replicate and improve on features in Wacom drawing tablets that its host device competes with, so it's completely different.
  - codetrotter 3y ago
    I know. That’s why I said it looks slightly similar and behaves differently.
ChrisMarshallNY 3y ago
Surface dial was very cool. I haven't heard much about it, though. Wouldn't surprise me to find that there may be patent clashes with this project. Most hardware is heavily patented with highly enforceable patents. It's a damn minefield. One of the problems with "Cool UX," is that it is too "in your face." I know of what I speak. I have designed "cool" UX elements for most of my career. It's a mistake I keep making. I guess I like the challenge. One of my latest efforts, is a "prize wheel" spinner for Swift (iOS/iPadOS, via UIKit)[0]. I have considered creating a SwiftUI version of it (and even started work on that), but I can't justify it. It's really very lightweight, high Quality, and easy to use. I keep on not using it in my projects, because it's too "attention-grabbing." There's a reason that waitstaff usually wear black. [0] https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_Spinner https://github.com/RiftValleySoftware/RVS_Spinner

heliostatic 3y ago

This is great! I've been thinking about building something similar for sleep training with my toddler--need something that works in a dark room by feel and has variable intervals. Love it.

seabass-labrax 3y ago

I absolutely love that this is open source hardware; there have been multiple circuits available on the web for this kind of peripheral, but nothing even approaching the level of polish that this has. If the designer happens to be here, I have a question regarding the circuit. Is there any protection against voltage produced by a user's rotation of the knob? The TMC6300 IC that the schematic shows is directly connected to the BDCM without any intermediate circuitry, but the only 'protections' listed in its datasheet are related to failures related to the motor being used as a motor, not as a generator.

scottbez1 3y ago
Designer here - I will admit that I just do this as a bit of a hobby and I'm not an EE, so I don't have a great answer for you, but generally speaking since this is a high resistance/low KV motor and there's only so fast you could spin it by hand realistically, I think the voltages you could generate that way shouldn't be so high as to cause damage in most cases. The TMC6300 datasheet does show it directly connected to the BLDC motor so that's what I based this design on. There are probably some best practices that I'm missing though (diode on the main supply maybe?), so if anyone knowledgeable wants to chime in, I'm all ears! (Or I suppose pull requests are welcome too).
- Ecco 3y ago
  Interactions like these are the reason why HN is so worth reading!
- seabass-labrax 3y ago
  Thanks for the swift response! I've been interested in haptic feedback for a long time, but so far have not come across any general way to calculate the acceptable power dissipation for a given motor and driver circuit. Physical controls have so much to offer in ease-of-use, but the chief downside of them currently is that there is no easy 'two-way binding'.
  - K0balt 3y ago

croes 3y ago

I definitely need a use case for that

squarefoot 3y ago
Control panels for various hardware. I could think of many uses in music synthesizers for example where access to many parameters for quick modification during live performance can make the difference.
- scottbez1 3y ago
  On a related music/audio note, I recently came across videos of the teenage engineering TP-7 which looks like a really cool application of similar haptic feedback concepts. Unfortunately it's out of the price range where I can justify picking one up just to tinker around with it, so I've only seen videos of it so far.
  - poyu 3y ago
    The TP-7’s disc does have haptic feedback in the menus, it clicks and resists based on the context. It’s a solid design.
- Perenti 3y ago
  I have a Roland/Boss GT-100 guitar processor (a big pedal board), which features 8 programmable/assignable open-ended rotary knobs (open ended as they can just be kept rotating without hitting some kind of stop). It would be great to be able to _feel_ hitting certain settings when brushing them with my foot, without having to look at all. As a musician, I think the introduction of haptics to electric/electronic instruments allows you to move in unexplored aural directions, which is sometimes very musical.
all2 3y ago
DIY smart thermostat? One button/rotary knob stereo interface?
frankus 3y ago

mattclarkdotnet 3y ago

Wonderful to see such a well documented open source hardware project! It does show though how much more difficult these are than software projects. 3d design and printing, hardware sourcing issues, the need for careful component selection, very poor support for automation of the toolchain, etc etc. As a minor hardware tinkerer this is both impressive and daunting. Bravo!

bryancoxwell 3y ago
Not to mention the cost of failure and iteration.
- fest 3y ago
  It's all relative. It has gotten at least an order of magnitude less expensive over the last 10-15 years- 3D printing, low cost PCB manufacturers, availability and cost of automated machine tools like CO2 laser-cutters. It has actually gotten to a point where often time is the most "expensive" component of hobby/open-source hardware projects- while the cost of CAD software has decreased (mostly due to competition and increased demand that allows to spread the development cost over larger customer base), the productivity of CAD-related tasks has not increased much, if at all.
  - Loic 3y ago
    After many years of being a father of 3 active kids, you can remove the "often" in your sentence :-D
Jabrov 3y ago
test

babl-yc 3y ago

Apparently this and many other cool projects were demoed at Open Sauce in SF https://opensauce.live/ https://opensauce.live/

justinlloyd 3y ago

Why hello there. I am building a digital jukebox with physical controls and was looking for a few different knob like controls to use to shuffle through tracks. Definitely going to be using this in the project. Thanks for a well documented and Open Source piece of hardware.

leetrout 3y ago

These would be awesome for flight simming.

Fuzzwah 3y ago
Being a sim racing guy, my initial thought was for brake bias / traction control / fuel map.

KRAKRISMOTT 3y ago

Can the parts be swapped out for automotive grade versions? I need it for the new Tesla Highland since it doesn't have a shifter

stavros 3y ago

Ooh this project is among the most impressive ones I've ever seen. I saw it years ago and I still remember it (and want one) from time to time. Well done.

TaylorAlexander 3y ago

Love to see open source hardware on HN. Great job with this one! If I were not overwhelmed with projects this one would be on my list.

dvdkon 3y ago

I have been looking for good-feeling large rotary encoders and this looks like the best option available. Having software-based detents means that they are perfectly aligned with the actual trigger, besides all the other flexibility demonstrated. Sadly it's too big and costly to put into a dimmer switch, but maybe I'll get it as a general peripheral.

Jemm 3y ago

The flight/space sim community would love this.

iAkashPaul 3y ago

SimpleFOC is one of the best things I learnt after graduation! So many projects can make use of the features, hardware & software both.

yencabulator 3y ago

Make sure to watch the demo videos, they're great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip641WmY4pA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip641WmY4pA and so on.

steeve 3y ago

I'd love to build a thermostat out of that. That seems like the perfect use case.

seabass-labrax 3y ago
I don't know how much you adjust your thermostat, but I would want more excuses to use it - something more interactive such as a TV remote! But it would be interesting to have a thermostat knob that 'resists' your twisting based on the estimated energy usage to produce your requested temperature, as an intuitive way of conveying heating/cooling costs.

jdcarter 3y ago

Brilliant execution. I see so many knob-based inputs on home appliances where they have physical detents but the input encoder does not match the detents. Say you turn the appliance on, it starts at setting one, and you need to turn the dial to setting three. Any reasonable person would expect one physical click to take you to setting two, another click would take you to setting three. But I keep seeing devices where the detents are completely arbitrary and you have no idea how many “clicks” it takes to get to the setting you want. This makes the detents actively misleading.