6 ms·

I'm confused how all of this doesn't violate the GDRP in the EU? I'm not an expert, but at face value I'd assume none of this is allowed by the GDRP, unless the

I'm confused how all of this doesn't violate the GDRP in the EU? I'm not an expert, but at face value I'd assume none of this is allowed by the GDRP, unless they found a loophole or no one was aware of it.

boesboes 3y ago
Until we properly fund the data protection agencies not much can be investigated and thus enforced. Also enforcement starts mostly with ‘please don’t do that’…
sschueller 3y ago
Supposedly EU data is stored in a Netherlands DC but it may still violate the law. For sure the Tesla recording while parked feature is illegal. I dont know why nothing is done about it. Probably just slow moving government. Especially now in Switzerland with the new privacy law. Private survalance of public grounds is illegal. Survalance of private property requires posting a clear sign of such including data retention, where data is stores and contact information.
- throwaway50605 3y ago
  Are dashcams illegal too? If not, how is it different?
  - flangola7 3y ago
    Dashcams are illegal in many jurisdictions, yes.
    - someplaceguy 3y ago
      Tesla dashcams are not illegal in the EU.
      - sschueller 3y ago
        If dashcams are then so are Tesla's and bigger issue with Tesla is if any of this footage leaves the car. Especially if it goes outside the EU like autopilot disengagements. This isn't something tne Tesla owner can sign in the ToS because the people in the footage are others. Tesla probably uses the excuse that you the operator are in violation not them but then again a Tesla owner has only limited control over this. I can legally buy a surveillance camera but it is my responsibility to use it legally.
        someplaceguy 3y ago
        > If dashcams are then so are Tesla's But why do you think dashcams are illegal in the EU? It's been ruled by multiple courts in the EU that dashcam recordings can be done legally because everyone is aware that they might be recorded in traffic at any time (e.g. by traffic cameras). That said, you have to comply with some restrictions. For example, you are probably not allowed to publish these recordings on Youtube. But they can definitely be used as legal evidence in court. Secondly, I don't think Tesla's dashcam footage leaves the car in the EU (unless there is an accident, perhaps). As far as I know, they don't even transmit or save any recording unless there is an accident or the user presses a button to save the footage into a USB drive inside the car. In the accident scenario, it is quite clear that it's legal to keep this recording, because these can be used in court as legal evidence. As far as I know, there are many situations in which you are not allowed to film someone or something in the EU in general, but you are allowed to do so if you intend to use it as legal evidence, as that purpose trumps the other privacy concerns. In the "user presses a button" scenario, it would be the user's responsibility to make sure that the recording is used legally. But again, if the user does not publish the recording and is only filming traffic, this is quite likely to be legal, especially if you only use it in reasonable scenarios (such as recording an accident in which you are not involved, or someone driving drunkenly). It's not like anyone is going to be pressing the button every 10 minutes. And even if they were, it would be their responsibility to make sure it's legal to do so. It wouldn't be dashcams themselves that are illegal, but rather, what you do with them and the saved footage (if there's any). Edit: I'm talking about the normal usage of the dashcams, not the Sentry mode functionality which has additional concerns (as you're not recording traffic, but rather people in the immediate surroundings of the car, when the car detects movement around it). As far as I know, courts have already decided that it's legal to have Sentry mode as well, but Tesla was required to warn users that they have to comply with data protection regulations when they use this functionality. That said, I'm not sure what are the exact requirements for using Sentry mode legally.
  - someplaceguy 3y ago
    > Are dashcams illegal too? If not, how is it different? A state court in Landgericht ruled that everyone who is participating in traffic is aware of being seen and recorded [1], so apparently it's different from being near a parked Tesla in public in which you might be recorded without your knowledge. There have been similar decisions by other courts, apparently. However, the law is probably a bit tricky, in that it might be legal to use the recorded video as evidence in court (or perhaps insurance purposes?), but probably not for other purposes such as posting it on Youtube. Last time I checked, in Spain (and probably other EU countries) similar reasoning applied for recording videos in public places, e.g. while you're walking on the street: I think you can record other people in public without their consent as part of your interactions with them, as long as you safeguard the recorded video and not publish it (and probably only for as long as it might be needed). You could use these recordings as evidence in court, but probably not for almost any other purpose. You might, however, be prone to being punched in the face, as many people find that to be quite aggressive behavior. Police may even arrest you and confiscate your equipment as they're not all necessarily aware of all the intricacies of data protection laws. [1] According to a reddit comment: https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/d2uzkd/sentry_mode_dash_cam_in_eu/ezx65ws/ https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/d2uzkd/sentry_...
    - sschueller 3y ago
      In Switzerland you can record crowds and in public but as soon as your footage focuses on a specific person you are violating their rights and require consent which can be revoked any time in the future. If you watch news footage you will see street footage but as soon as a person is too close or start being the focus they will blur it out. However there are exceptions, for example a large public gathering that is broadcast on television you can not expect privacy. For example the street parade. I ended up in a CD album art booklet without my knowledge or consent but it was at the street parade at which you can't expect privacy if you are attending.
      - someplaceguy 3y ago
        > In Switzerland you can record crowds and in public but as soon as your footage focuses on a specific person you are violating their rights and require consent which can be revoked any time in the future. Probably I didn't make this very clear, but in the specific scenario I mentioned, it is legal to record a specific person without their consent but only if: 1. You are interacting with that person, and 2. You don't publish the recording (without the person's consent). And I think there are other restrictions as well, although I don't remember exactly, e.g. you might be required to delete the recording if it's no longer needed and/or you might only be allowed to record it if you intend to use it as legal evidence and/or you might be required to take reasonable steps to protect the recording (i.e. not allow other people to access it). But again, I'm not sure about these latter restrictions. Also, there is a distinction between recording someone (or some place) and just keeping the recording vs publishing the recording. The latter has more restrictions than the former, obviously. Although I have no clue how live streaming fits into all of this, as you're not (necessarily) saving the recording? So I'm not sure how the GDPR laws come into the live streaming scenario, if at all.
kkfx 3y ago
It does, but in most cases how can you prove that the car record and send such information to the OEM and others? Most new cars offer some kind of audio interfaces, so they NORMALLY listen to you, some also have various "security features" to monitor driver attention that demand video. Can you prove in a closed source system that such information does not goes beyond the car itself?

boesboes 3y ago

Until we properly fund the data protection agencies not much can be investigated and thus enforced. Also enforcement starts mostly with ‘please don’t do that’…

sschueller 3y ago

Supposedly EU data is stored in a Netherlands DC but it may still violate the law. For sure the Tesla recording while parked feature is illegal. I dont know why nothing is done about it. Probably just slow moving government. Especially now in Switzerland with the new privacy law. Private survalance of public grounds is illegal. Survalance of private property requires posting a clear sign of such including data retention, where data is stores and contact information.

throwaway50605 3y ago
Are dashcams illegal too? If not, how is it different?
- flangola7 3y ago
  Dashcams are illegal in many jurisdictions, yes.
  - someplaceguy 3y ago
    Tesla dashcams are not illegal in the EU.
    - sschueller 3y ago
      If dashcams are then so are Tesla's and bigger issue with Tesla is if any of this footage leaves the car. Especially if it goes outside the EU like autopilot disengagements. This isn't something tne Tesla owner can sign in the ToS because the people in the footage are others. Tesla probably uses the excuse that you the operator are in violation not them but then again a Tesla owner has only limited control over this. I can legally buy a surveillance camera but it is my responsibility to use it legally.
      - someplaceguy 3y ago
        > If dashcams are then so are Tesla's But why do you think dashcams are illegal in the EU? It's been ruled by multiple courts in the EU that dashcam recordings can be done legally because everyone is aware that they might be recorded in traffic at any time (e.g. by traffic cameras). That said, you have to comply with some restrictions. For example, you are probably not allowed to publish these recordings on Youtube. But they can definitely be used as legal evidence in court. Secondly, I don't think Tesla's dashcam footage leaves the car in the EU (unless there is an accident, perhaps). As far as I know, they don't even transmit or save any recording unless there is an accident or the user presses a button to save the footage into a USB drive inside the car. In the accident scenario, it is quite clear that it's legal to keep this recording, because these can be used in court as legal evidence. As far as I know, there are many situations in which you are not allowed to film someone or something in the EU in general, but you are allowed to do so if you intend to use it as legal evidence, as that purpose trumps the other privacy concerns. In the "user presses a button" scenario, it would be the user's responsibility to make sure that the recording is used legally. But again, if the user does not publish the recording and is only filming traffic, this is quite likely to be legal, especially if you only use it in reasonable scenarios (such as recording an accident in which you are not involved, or someone driving drunkenly). It's not like anyone is going to be pressing the button every 10 minutes. And even if they were, it would be their responsibility to make sure it's legal to do so. It wouldn't be dashcams themselves that are illegal, but rather, what you do with them and the saved footage (if there's any). Edit: I'm talking about the normal usage of the dashcams, not the Sentry mode functionality which has additional concerns (as you're not recording traffic, but rather people in the immediate surroundings of the car, when the car detects movement around it). As far as I know, courts have already decided that it's legal to have Sentry mode as well, but Tesla was required to warn users that they have to comply with data protection regulations when they use this functionality. That said, I'm not sure what are the exact requirements for using Sentry mode legally.
- someplaceguy 3y ago
  > Are dashcams illegal too? If not, how is it different? A state court in Landgericht ruled that everyone who is participating in traffic is aware of being seen and recorded [1], so apparently it's different from being near a parked Tesla in public in which you might be recorded without your knowledge. There have been similar decisions by other courts, apparently. However, the law is probably a bit tricky, in that it might be legal to use the recorded video as evidence in court (or perhaps insurance purposes?), but probably not for other purposes such as posting it on Youtube. Last time I checked, in Spain (and probably other EU countries) similar reasoning applied for recording videos in public places, e.g. while you're walking on the street: I think you can record other people in public without their consent as part of your interactions with them, as long as you safeguard the recorded video and not publish it (and probably only for as long as it might be needed). You could use these recordings as evidence in court, but probably not for almost any other purpose. You might, however, be prone to being punched in the face, as many people find that to be quite aggressive behavior. Police may even arrest you and confiscate your equipment as they're not all necessarily aware of all the intricacies of data protection laws. [1] According to a reddit comment: https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/d2uzkd/sentry_mode_dash_cam_in_eu/ezx65ws/ https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/d2uzkd/sentry_...
  - sschueller 3y ago
    In Switzerland you can record crowds and in public but as soon as your footage focuses on a specific person you are violating their rights and require consent which can be revoked any time in the future. If you watch news footage you will see street footage but as soon as a person is too close or start being the focus they will blur it out. However there are exceptions, for example a large public gathering that is broadcast on television you can not expect privacy. For example the street parade. I ended up in a CD album art booklet without my knowledge or consent but it was at the street parade at which you can't expect privacy if you are attending.
    - someplaceguy 3y ago
      > In Switzerland you can record crowds and in public but as soon as your footage focuses on a specific person you are violating their rights and require consent which can be revoked any time in the future. Probably I didn't make this very clear, but in the specific scenario I mentioned, it is legal to record a specific person without their consent but only if: 1. You are interacting with that person, and 2. You don't publish the recording (without the person's consent). And I think there are other restrictions as well, although I don't remember exactly, e.g. you might be required to delete the recording if it's no longer needed and/or you might only be allowed to record it if you intend to use it as legal evidence and/or you might be required to take reasonable steps to protect the recording (i.e. not allow other people to access it). But again, I'm not sure about these latter restrictions. Also, there is a distinction between recording someone (or some place) and just keeping the recording vs publishing the recording. The latter has more restrictions than the former, obviously. Although I have no clue how live streaming fits into all of this, as you're not (necessarily) saving the recording? So I'm not sure how the GDPR laws come into the live streaming scenario, if at all.

kkfx 3y ago

It does, but in most cases how can you prove that the car record and send such information to the OEM and others? Most new cars offer some kind of audio interfaces, so they NORMALLY listen to you, some also have various "security features" to monitor driver attention that demand video. Can you prove in a closed source system that such information does not goes beyond the car itself?