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I would look at it more like both sides are players. Playas gonna play. The girl plays, the guy plays. Omar: All in the game It's not like devs aren't gonna j

I would look at it more like both sides are players. Playas gonna play. The girl plays, the guy plays. Omar: All in the game It's not like devs aren't gonna jump ship when the cycle shifts back in the other direction. Edit: RTO is a hill I think devs should be prepared to die on. If every dev is not ready to fight for Remote, don't be shocked when it's not even an option as the years go by. Covid gave us a gift, and it's precious. We have to fight to keep it. Remote or Die.

sokoloff 3y ago
> If every dev is not ready to fight for Remote...We have to fight to keep it...Remote or Die. I had devs quit because we went remote. I have other devs still here but expressing a clear preference for more of an in-office experience. Not everyone has the same preferences and not every dev wants to work remotely. We shouldn't be surprised when those differences of opinion play out in the remote vs hybrid vs in-office spectrum.
- lsmeducation 3y ago
  The Remote contingent needs to fight harder than the office contingent because the office paradigm has been the dominant paradigm up until now. In-office work will realistically be seen as a niche when it's all said and done imho. Similar to LAN parties. It's not the way most people want to do things. Time will tell I guess. But thanks for your anecdote, I hope as time goes on, we begin to see what a niche anecdote it will become.
  - hotnfresh 3y ago
    I’ve just recently encountered a company with a culture that doesn’t interact so well with remote work, and it’s been eye opening. Lots of preference for talking (in person, or call) as soon as a message exchange goes past about two messages, when often what needs to happen is one party needs to go figure out WTF they actually want or are concerned about so they can describe it clearly—the talking doesn’t help, either, just wastes more time. Awful weirdly-restrictive chat room organization, which is shocking considering nearly-leaderless online communities manage to arrange those kinds of things better. Everything important gets posted to one-on-one chats or ephemeral and invisible-to-outsiders small group direct messages. The effect is they’ve accidentally made a bunch of stuff opaque and secret that really, really should not be. It’s poison for collaboration. I also get the impression some folks here just kinda… aren’t comfortable with written language. Reading or writing it. It’s so weird to see, but some of the folks who’ve been living this kind of job-life 10+ years, now I get how they think remote can’t possibly be as productive as in-person—but it’s mostly due to dumb mistakes that are also harming collaboration in the office. Most of them have no idea the place is doing things so entirely wrong, or how much better it can be with some simple tweaks.
    - lsmeducation 3y ago
      Okay, so why do you think that will get better in person? Just curious. Why is "lets meet in person" the go to solution? Look, the RTO people are LOUDER. Period. They will win this fight if the Remote or Die crew doesn't get loud.
      - hotnfresh 3y ago
        I think in-person talking papers over a bunch of dysfunction, in this case, at enormous cost in still-much-worse-than-ideal productivity (plus the overhead of offices). But does let things get done more efficiently than if they tried to take that dysfunction into a heavily-remote environment. It also, separately, masks it—people working in-person, but hobbled by bad communication patterns, at least look productive. I’m not claiming this is good, mind you, but that it’s made me understand at least one (I suspect large) segment of the “remote can’t be as good as in-person” side of the argument. If this is how they think “serious business” should or must function, no wonder they’re skeptical of remote work. Meanwhile they’re actually just organizationally bad at communication, in general.
        lsmeducation 3y ago
        Alright, I guess. In-office had a long time to evolve (half a century I'd say). Remote work kind of only had the COVID years. It's a baby in an incubator. The RTO stuff is kind of like infanticide. So while I understand your perspective, from a war point of view, we have no choice but to protect this baby. They want to cut this experiment off asap. Every little anecdote, every little corporate RTO plan, every little CEO saying shit, is just chipping away at such an infant life. Give it the same chance the office bullshit had, which was decades. I kind of have to be militant about this. Thanks for the other side, but this baby gotta be kept alive. If your team sucks, your team sucks. Doesn't matter if you're in office, or out of office.
        hotnfresh 3y ago
        I’m on your side. I just think understanding the “enemy” is usually more beneficial than not. [edit] to explain, I’m using this information to push the organization toward improvements that I can sell without mentioning remote work, but which, if adopted, will surely cause people here to notice a smaller difference between WFH days and in-office days. It may take a while, but this should reduce reluctance to allow long stretches of, or indefinite, remote work.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  I always hear of this legion of office lovers but when you ask for actual number splits it ends up perhaps somewhat unsurprisingly being that the vast majority of people want 100% remote. All you office people can go work together then, don’t make it miserable for the rest of us
  - lsmeducation 3y ago
    It's because they are straight up lying. Like c'mon, you get your OWN PRIVATE BATHROOM when you work from home. The benefits are so obvious, I wonder if the in-office people are legitimate trolls at times.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
      But but the free coffee! Sometimes there are even doughnuts.
    - jcranmer 3y ago
      One reason people like me might prefer working in the office: I don't have a room in my apartment that I can turn into a home office. (Also, in the home I grew up in, I never had a private bathroom, nor did my parents. What kind of luxurious abode do you live in, and why do you assume that everyone has the same living conditions as you?)
      - lsmeducation 3y ago
        Okay, you're on team office, got it. This cardboard box living individual here has such terrible living conditions he longs to breath the air of commercial real estate. Does your bathroom have a stall? No right? If you rent, your apartment comes with a private bathroom. If you have a roommate, at most one other person shares it with you. That's a pretty private bathroom. You ever been on line to use the bathroom before in the office? Do you think its fun to take a shit with 10 other people in the bathroom with you? lol Stick a desk in the corner of your apartment and voila, home office.
- vsareto 3y ago
  Higher costs of living make relocation and in-office work more restrictive, but that isn't a big concern for remote. Same for the travel burden. It would be very natural to see remote salaries become lower than in-office salaries on convenience, while in-office salaries go up because of that, but that's not really happening. So while you should choose work for your preferences when you can, you shouldn't let companies gain advantages like under compensating in-office workers. After all, they've already mostly taken away actual offices for individuals. This fight could be fought on that principle alone.
- mmmm2 3y ago
  Sure, not everyone wants to go remote, but many people do. Those of us who like remote work want to preserve it as an option. There's already resistance from companies with leases and cities with "empty" downtowns. I'm hopefully the change will stick despite that.

sokoloff 3y ago

> If every dev is not ready to fight for Remote...We have to fight to keep it...Remote or Die. I had devs quit because we went remote. I have other devs still here but expressing a clear preference for more of an in-office experience. Not everyone has the same preferences and not every dev wants to work remotely. We shouldn't be surprised when those differences of opinion play out in the remote vs hybrid vs in-office spectrum.

lsmeducation 3y ago
The Remote contingent needs to fight harder than the office contingent because the office paradigm has been the dominant paradigm up until now. In-office work will realistically be seen as a niche when it's all said and done imho. Similar to LAN parties. It's not the way most people want to do things. Time will tell I guess. But thanks for your anecdote, I hope as time goes on, we begin to see what a niche anecdote it will become.
- hotnfresh 3y ago
  I’ve just recently encountered a company with a culture that doesn’t interact so well with remote work, and it’s been eye opening. Lots of preference for talking (in person, or call) as soon as a message exchange goes past about two messages, when often what needs to happen is one party needs to go figure out WTF they actually want or are concerned about so they can describe it clearly—the talking doesn’t help, either, just wastes more time. Awful weirdly-restrictive chat room organization, which is shocking considering nearly-leaderless online communities manage to arrange those kinds of things better. Everything important gets posted to one-on-one chats or ephemeral and invisible-to-outsiders small group direct messages. The effect is they’ve accidentally made a bunch of stuff opaque and secret that really, really should not be. It’s poison for collaboration. I also get the impression some folks here just kinda… aren’t comfortable with written language. Reading or writing it. It’s so weird to see, but some of the folks who’ve been living this kind of job-life 10+ years, now I get how they think remote can’t possibly be as productive as in-person—but it’s mostly due to dumb mistakes that are also harming collaboration in the office. Most of them have no idea the place is doing things so entirely wrong, or how much better it can be with some simple tweaks.
  - lsmeducation 3y ago
    Okay, so why do you think that will get better in person? Just curious. Why is "lets meet in person" the go to solution? Look, the RTO people are LOUDER. Period. They will win this fight if the Remote or Die crew doesn't get loud.
    - hotnfresh 3y ago
      I think in-person talking papers over a bunch of dysfunction, in this case, at enormous cost in still-much-worse-than-ideal productivity (plus the overhead of offices). But does let things get done more efficiently than if they tried to take that dysfunction into a heavily-remote environment. It also, separately, masks it—people working in-person, but hobbled by bad communication patterns, at least look productive. I’m not claiming this is good, mind you, but that it’s made me understand at least one (I suspect large) segment of the “remote can’t be as good as in-person” side of the argument. If this is how they think “serious business” should or must function, no wonder they’re skeptical of remote work. Meanwhile they’re actually just organizationally bad at communication, in general.
      - lsmeducation 3y ago
        Alright, I guess. In-office had a long time to evolve (half a century I'd say). Remote work kind of only had the COVID years. It's a baby in an incubator. The RTO stuff is kind of like infanticide. So while I understand your perspective, from a war point of view, we have no choice but to protect this baby. They want to cut this experiment off asap. Every little anecdote, every little corporate RTO plan, every little CEO saying shit, is just chipping away at such an infant life. Give it the same chance the office bullshit had, which was decades. I kind of have to be militant about this. Thanks for the other side, but this baby gotta be kept alive. If your team sucks, your team sucks. Doesn't matter if you're in office, or out of office.
        hotnfresh 3y ago
        I’m on your side. I just think understanding the “enemy” is usually more beneficial than not. [edit] to explain, I’m using this information to push the organization toward improvements that I can sell without mentioning remote work, but which, if adopted, will surely cause people here to notice a smaller difference between WFH days and in-office days. It may take a while, but this should reduce reluctance to allow long stretches of, or indefinite, remote work.
SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
I always hear of this legion of office lovers but when you ask for actual number splits it ends up perhaps somewhat unsurprisingly being that the vast majority of people want 100% remote. All you office people can go work together then, don’t make it miserable for the rest of us
- lsmeducation 3y ago
  It's because they are straight up lying. Like c'mon, you get your OWN PRIVATE BATHROOM when you work from home. The benefits are so obvious, I wonder if the in-office people are legitimate trolls at times.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - 0cf8612b2e1e 3y ago
    But but the free coffee! Sometimes there are even doughnuts.
  - jcranmer 3y ago
    One reason people like me might prefer working in the office: I don't have a room in my apartment that I can turn into a home office. (Also, in the home I grew up in, I never had a private bathroom, nor did my parents. What kind of luxurious abode do you live in, and why do you assume that everyone has the same living conditions as you?)
    - lsmeducation 3y ago
      Okay, you're on team office, got it. This cardboard box living individual here has such terrible living conditions he longs to breath the air of commercial real estate. Does your bathroom have a stall? No right? If you rent, your apartment comes with a private bathroom. If you have a roommate, at most one other person shares it with you. That's a pretty private bathroom. You ever been on line to use the bathroom before in the office? Do you think its fun to take a shit with 10 other people in the bathroom with you? lol Stick a desk in the corner of your apartment and voila, home office.
vsareto 3y ago
Higher costs of living make relocation and in-office work more restrictive, but that isn't a big concern for remote. Same for the travel burden. It would be very natural to see remote salaries become lower than in-office salaries on convenience, while in-office salaries go up because of that, but that's not really happening. So while you should choose work for your preferences when you can, you shouldn't let companies gain advantages like under compensating in-office workers. After all, they've already mostly taken away actual offices for individuals. This fight could be fought on that principle alone.
mmmm2 3y ago
Sure, not everyone wants to go remote, but many people do. Those of us who like remote work want to preserve it as an option. There's already resistance from companies with leases and cities with "empty" downtowns. I'm hopefully the change will stick despite that.