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The counterpoint is that this isn't a step that is being taken because we are desperately trying to feed all of humanity. Its a step thats being taken because t

The counterpoint is that this isn't a step that is being taken because we are desperately trying to feed all of humanity. Its a step thats being taken because these providers want to increase their profit margins. The question is whether thats a good enough reason to take whatever risks are being taken here.

gloryjulio 3y ago
The underlying point was never discussed enough. We just had too many people on earth and our technology is not good enough to feed all while being sustainable
- pas 3y ago
  that's simply not true. there is both enough food and space and technology (and energy). the problem is allocation and distribution of that. eating industrial salmon is not a necessity for anyone.
space_fountain 3y ago
And the counterpoint to that is that it’s searching for profits that push for greater efficiency in the presence of competition. They aren’t searching necessarily for larger profit margins, just more profit. Sure if they have a monopoly either in practice or classically they’ll just pocket more of the money, but ideally someone will realize they could make even more money by lowering prices. Ryanair is successful not because they have a huge profit margin, but because they move a lot of people.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  > it’s searching for profits that push for greater efficiency Efficiency like John Deer using the copyright law to stop Farmers from repairing their tractors? https://capturedeconomy.com/how-copyright-enabled-john-deere-to-restrict-farmers-right-to-repair/ https://capturedeconomy.com/how-copyright-enabled-john-deere...
  - alphanullmeric 3y ago
    Good thing capitalism is against the right to an idea.
    - Dylan16807 3y ago
      The definition of capitalism used by 99% of people is one that includes copyright.
      - alphanullmeric 3y ago
        The one that goes “force is only justified in response to force” does not.
    - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
      Where do I find this capitalism, which country, i an packing my bags right now. Is it China, since they are the ones that seem to flout patents all the time? Why is it that the 'Capitalists' on here want to take all the credit, but when there is a problem it's got nothing to do with them?
      - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
        There's a reason they call them externalities. When you use fancy terminology for "not my problem", you gain legitimacy.
      - alphanullmeric 3y ago
        There is none, because there are no pure economies. Is capitalism for or against government intervention?
        ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        Can you define government intervention? For example is it capitalist or socialist to have a national bank and currency? Should each private bank print their own currency? When government provides employees protections against unfair dismissal we call that government intervention. But we regularly prosecute and imprison employees for 'stealing intellectual property' at the taxpayer's expense, or enforse non-competes using the power of the state, and thats never called government intervention. The way I see it, people who use term 'government intervention' are trying to have their cake and eat it. If government should not intervene when Amazon pays no taxes and abuses its monopoly position, then it should also not expend taxpayer money to protect them from shoplifting.
- gdubs 3y ago
  This is basically intervening in the market though, by papering-over negative externalities. A true market efficiency scenario would mean that more sustainable upstarts have their shot. But if we keep giving established industries a pass, then we're essentially giving them an unfair advantage and removing the very competition that capitalism prides itself on.
- octacat 3y ago
  More pesticides means more pollution. The farms are in the open rivers. Which means damage to the ecosystem and to the wild life (i.e. pesticides are to fight infection and that infection affects the wild fish population). So, basically getting more profits by introducing more issues for "someone else to solve".
  - space_fountain 3y ago
    I’m replying here just to the person above. I don’t have an opinion about if this single action was a good policy or not. Though, I am generally supportive of capitalism as a system that has moved a huge number of people out of poverty, but I obviously acknowledge that externalities at least need managed by counties (along with lots of things actually). But it is wrong that companies merely act to maximize profit margin. It feels like it’s part of the same recent trend of acting like the reason we have global warming is because of a handful of selfish people. There are trade offs. Turning the world into a organic farming utopia would be forcing billions to starve. Banning pesticides here would likely result in higher fish prices. Turning off oil right now would mean trillions dying as the world’s economy stopped. That doesn’t mean we can do nothing, but we can’t pretend like problems in the world are created exclusively by bad selfish people because then we’ll pretend we never need to change

gloryjulio 3y ago

The underlying point was never discussed enough. We just had too many people on earth and our technology is not good enough to feed all while being sustainable

pas 3y ago
that's simply not true. there is both enough food and space and technology (and energy). the problem is allocation and distribution of that. eating industrial salmon is not a necessity for anyone.

space_fountain 3y ago

And the counterpoint to that is that it’s searching for profits that push for greater efficiency in the presence of competition. They aren’t searching necessarily for larger profit margins, just more profit. Sure if they have a monopoly either in practice or classically they’ll just pocket more of the money, but ideally someone will realize they could make even more money by lowering prices. Ryanair is successful not because they have a huge profit margin, but because they move a lot of people.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> it’s searching for profits that push for greater efficiency Efficiency like John Deer using the copyright law to stop Farmers from repairing their tractors? https://capturedeconomy.com/how-copyright-enabled-john-deere-to-restrict-farmers-right-to-repair/ https://capturedeconomy.com/how-copyright-enabled-john-deere...
- alphanullmeric 3y ago
  Good thing capitalism is against the right to an idea.
  - Dylan16807 3y ago
    The definition of capitalism used by 99% of people is one that includes copyright.
    - alphanullmeric 3y ago
      The one that goes “force is only justified in response to force” does not.
  - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
    Where do I find this capitalism, which country, i an packing my bags right now. Is it China, since they are the ones that seem to flout patents all the time? Why is it that the 'Capitalists' on here want to take all the credit, but when there is a problem it's got nothing to do with them?
    - CatWChainsaw 3y ago
      There's a reason they call them externalities. When you use fancy terminology for "not my problem", you gain legitimacy.
    - alphanullmeric 3y ago
      There is none, because there are no pure economies. Is capitalism for or against government intervention?
      - ClumsyPilot 3y ago
        Can you define government intervention? For example is it capitalist or socialist to have a national bank and currency? Should each private bank print their own currency? When government provides employees protections against unfair dismissal we call that government intervention. But we regularly prosecute and imprison employees for 'stealing intellectual property' at the taxpayer's expense, or enforse non-competes using the power of the state, and thats never called government intervention. The way I see it, people who use term 'government intervention' are trying to have their cake and eat it. If government should not intervene when Amazon pays no taxes and abuses its monopoly position, then it should also not expend taxpayer money to protect them from shoplifting.
gdubs 3y ago
This is basically intervening in the market though, by papering-over negative externalities. A true market efficiency scenario would mean that more sustainable upstarts have their shot. But if we keep giving established industries a pass, then we're essentially giving them an unfair advantage and removing the very competition that capitalism prides itself on.
octacat 3y ago
More pesticides means more pollution. The farms are in the open rivers. Which means damage to the ecosystem and to the wild life (i.e. pesticides are to fight infection and that infection affects the wild fish population). So, basically getting more profits by introducing more issues for "someone else to solve".
- space_fountain 3y ago
  I’m replying here just to the person above. I don’t have an opinion about if this single action was a good policy or not. Though, I am generally supportive of capitalism as a system that has moved a huge number of people out of poverty, but I obviously acknowledge that externalities at least need managed by counties (along with lots of things actually). But it is wrong that companies merely act to maximize profit margin. It feels like it’s part of the same recent trend of acting like the reason we have global warming is because of a handful of selfish people. There are trade offs. Turning the world into a organic farming utopia would be forcing billions to starve. Banning pesticides here would likely result in higher fish prices. Turning off oil right now would mean trillions dying as the world’s economy stopped. That doesn’t mean we can do nothing, but we can’t pretend like problems in the world are created exclusively by bad selfish people because then we’ll pretend we never need to change