7 ms·

I think your entire thesis is wrong. People are not having kids because they have good alternatives now. International travel is affordable for more and more p

I think your entire thesis is wrong. People are not having kids because they have good alternatives now. International travel is affordable for more and more people, regularly going to fine dining establishments is something accessible to most American software engineers, and the people left having kids are the ones either too poor to afford those good things anyways, or people who are knowingly giving them up in exchange for expected joy from raising a child.

ido 3y ago
International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. I don't mean quantitatively, but qualitatively - you don't get the same kind of satisfaction from both. The only thing I'd say is somewhat qualitatively comparable is being a in a loving relationship.
- devbent 3y ago
  > International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. The returns are guaranteed, whereas a child can end up having negative returns at an almost endless scale. The potential downsides to having a child are endless, the upside is limited and finite. Also w/o children retiring early is doable for the financially responsible, whereas having even a single child makes that difficult. Being financially independent at 40 or so allows for a lot of options for self fulfillment. An almost endless array of meaningful causes around the world are in dire need of help. The tl;dr is that for a lot of people the choice comes down to "travel the world and have sex on beaches while eating fine food" or "unknown baby that might bring joy or potentially ruin your life." Is it any wonder rational people are choosing the path that allows them to travel, eat well, be financially stable, and find meaningful hobbies and activities? Again, I believe what it comes down to now is that people have a choice. It isn't "get married -> have kids" but rather "find partner, figure out what to do next". Heck marriage rates are also plummeting (which IMHO is bad news for social stability). The lack of social support certainly makes the choice of having kids harder, but my #1 ask isn't government funded daycare, it would be a world where having a large familial support structure is the norm. Honestly the hardest part of having a kid is that without family nearby, there is no down time. Government programs can't help that capitalism spread families to the winds.
  - ido 3y ago
    I'm ok with people choosing not having children & it's good that there's a choice. I'm just pointing out (from personal experience, an experience someone who doesn't have kids doesn't have) that it's not a float happiness with traveling the world adding +1.5f and a child +4.3f. It's not comparable, not in the colloquial sense that one is a much bigger value than the other but literally in the sense that it's not the same quality/feeling/satisfaction. It's true that you don't know what you're going to get (e.g. children with disabilities are a lot more challenging that healthy kids) but I think the materialistic approach ("should I take 4 vacation or raise 1 child?") is not conductive to finding happiness in life. I agree regarding the challenges in our current system & government/societal support.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  You are assuming everyone gets joy out of children, or that everyone is a capable parent. These are demonstrably false.

ido 3y ago

International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. I don't mean quantitatively, but qualitatively - you don't get the same kind of satisfaction from both. The only thing I'd say is somewhat qualitatively comparable is being a in a loving relationship.

devbent 3y ago
> International travel and fine dining is absolutely not comparable to having kids in terms of the returns you get on these activities. The returns are guaranteed, whereas a child can end up having negative returns at an almost endless scale. The potential downsides to having a child are endless, the upside is limited and finite. Also w/o children retiring early is doable for the financially responsible, whereas having even a single child makes that difficult. Being financially independent at 40 or so allows for a lot of options for self fulfillment. An almost endless array of meaningful causes around the world are in dire need of help. The tl;dr is that for a lot of people the choice comes down to "travel the world and have sex on beaches while eating fine food" or "unknown baby that might bring joy or potentially ruin your life." Is it any wonder rational people are choosing the path that allows them to travel, eat well, be financially stable, and find meaningful hobbies and activities? Again, I believe what it comes down to now is that people have a choice. It isn't "get married -> have kids" but rather "find partner, figure out what to do next". Heck marriage rates are also plummeting (which IMHO is bad news for social stability). The lack of social support certainly makes the choice of having kids harder, but my #1 ask isn't government funded daycare, it would be a world where having a large familial support structure is the norm. Honestly the hardest part of having a kid is that without family nearby, there is no down time. Government programs can't help that capitalism spread families to the winds.
- ido 3y ago
  I'm ok with people choosing not having children & it's good that there's a choice. I'm just pointing out (from personal experience, an experience someone who doesn't have kids doesn't have) that it's not a float happiness with traveling the world adding +1.5f and a child +4.3f. It's not comparable, not in the colloquial sense that one is a much bigger value than the other but literally in the sense that it's not the same quality/feeling/satisfaction. It's true that you don't know what you're going to get (e.g. children with disabilities are a lot more challenging that healthy kids) but I think the materialistic approach ("should I take 4 vacation or raise 1 child?") is not conductive to finding happiness in life. I agree regarding the challenges in our current system & government/societal support.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
You are assuming everyone gets joy out of children, or that everyone is a capable parent. These are demonstrably false.