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The decline of coal was hastened by public policy, but was inevitable. Also, other parts of Appalachia haven’t met West Virginia’s fate because the states succe

by ke88y 3y ago

The decline of coal was hastened by public policy, but was inevitable. Also, other parts of Appalachia haven’t met West Virginia’s fate because the states successfully diversified their economies and don’t rely as heavily on extractive industries. West Virginia’s issue — as a state - is a deep seated cultural unwillingness to adapt or change. The decline of goal is the trigger, not the problem.

RhysU 3y ago
If I defenestrate a frail 80-year-old that they were eventually going to die naturally is not a murder defense. If a robust 80-year-old lived next to the frail one it is also not a murder defense. If the frail one was a stubborn old mule it is likewise not a murder defense. Maybe the neighborhood is better without the dead one, but that doesn't change that they were murdered.
- stoolpigeon 3y ago
  Getting rid of an industry that literally is killing people world wide is not the same as killing a person. It's the opposite, it is saving lives.
  - RhysU 3y ago
    I am not arguing about any greater good. Killing is killing. My favorite joke here (SMBC?) is that the robbers that killed Batman's 2 parents did not save N-2 people because Batman saved N people.
    - stoolpigeon 3y ago
      You keep equating killing an industry with killing people - this is a false comparison. Ending the use of coal saves human lives and does not take any human lives. The batman comparison is irrelevant. No longer using asbestos saved lives and didn't take lives. Removing lead from consumer products saves lives and didn't take lives. I'm sure you there were people in the asbestos industry who weren't happy about the change and they would have gladly gone on giving people cancer. Just like people in the coal industry still bemoan the fact they can't keep killing as many people.
      - RhysU 3y ago
        If I kill a car's engine or kill the music or kill this conversation do you understand what I mean? The executive branch killed the coal industry. It was a swift action to bring something to a close. That people in this thread can't disentangle one sense of "kill" from another is disappointing. My "murder" examples probably didn’t help but I figured people might enjoy the nuances (All of them could have been written about turning off, or killing, a bad radio station vs a good radio station and the arguments hold). Lesson learned. My point has never been about the extent to which coal usage ends the life of humans. Frankly, that doesn't matter to anything I have said.
- ke88y 3y ago
  This sort of victim mentality is endemic to the region. WV could have taken the path of western PA. Not perfect, still some deep scars, but a flourishing new economy that can help pay for long term recovery and provided youth with some sort of future. WV chose victimhood over adaptation, for decades, and here we are. The article isn’t just about cutting humanities departments. WV is so thoroughly hollowed out that it can’t even afford to keep its flagship Computer Science department fully staffed. It’ll be left out of the great onshoring because there is not sufficient human capital or infrastructure. It’s the state government version of a private equity “strip mine the assets and wind it down” operation. Constant victimhood is a self fulfilling prophecy. Opportunities were there. WV was too busy being obstinate to take them.
  - RhysU 3y ago
    Heh, this family is in Western PA which I left in the early 2000's for greener pastures outside of PA entirely. I love the area and the people, but pretending things are economically rosy in Western PA in the extraction areas undercuts your credibility. Leave Pittsburgh once in awhile.
    - morelisp 3y ago
      No one's saying things are economically fine in western PA. But, they can still easily afford to teach French.
    - ke88y 3y ago
      My comment notes there are still deep scars. > Leave Pittsburgh once in awhile. 1. These sorts of presumptive comments are presumptive and serve no purpose in the conversation. Believe it or not, you aren't the only person on the internet with your background. 2. Western PA is an enormous region, and it's not just Allegheny County that is doing well relative to West Virginia. 3. Having some base of economic activity outside of coal is still better than nothing, even if resulting employment is concentrated in metro areas.
  - pirate787 3y ago
    It's not victimhood, its corruption and incompetence in a massively centralized state government system.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
jwells89 3y ago
As someone who was born and raised in WV, I’ll say that though the coal industry had been the state’s lifeline for over a century, the relationship was toxic at best. Appalachian coal miners are among the most used and abused groups of workers in modern history. The pay is good for the area yes, but it requires trading away your health and risking death. Coal companies are shameless when it comes to workers’ rights and that traces all the way back to their origin point. They’re part of the reason that governmental worker protections exist now. Realistically the state government should’ve started to seriously try to attract alternative industries decades ago, because the state was always going to spiral if it relied on coal… the only difference is the speed of the spiral.
- paulmd 3y ago
  Yup, things like “portal to portal” rules for Amazon warehouse workers have their origin in the subterranean portals of a mine, because coal companies didn’t want to pay their workers for the hour ride down or up the mineshaft. Which is the analogy Amazon drew to their frisk lines at the exits, even if they require it it’s not “part of the job” etc. Coal companies were the Uber of their time, “innovating” in a space and time when the law hadn’t kept up with industrial progress, and obviously one of the places you can extract value is from the welfare of your workers.
tzs 3y ago
> West Virginia’s issue — as a state - is a deep seated cultural unwillingness to adapt or change As illustrated by the 2016 election. One candidate said coal had played a vital role in making the US what it is but it is in decline due to both the need to address climate change and falling demand due to advances in other forms of energy production. That candidate proposed a $30 billion dollar plan to "ensure that coal miners and their families get the benefits they’ve earned and respect they deserve, to invest in economic diversification and job creation, and to make coal communities an engine of US economic growth in the 21st century as they have been for generations" [1]. The other candidate said he would reverse the decline in coal and bring back the jobs and mines that had gone away over the previous decade. He offered no hint at how he would accomplish that, and nearly all analysts and even more coal mine owners said that because of the shale revolution and the rapidly falling prices of wind and solar coal would remain in decline no matter what the government did West Virginia overwhelmingly voted for that second candidate giving him a larger percentage of their vote (68%) than any other state. [1] https://static.politico.com/b8/90/cbbc9c59413089d87e8d6340f13d/clinton-releases-30-billion-strategy-to-help-coal-communities.pdf https://static.politico.com/b8/90/cbbc9c59413089d87e8d6340f1...

by ke88y 3y ago

RhysU 3y ago

If I defenestrate a frail 80-year-old that they were eventually going to die naturally is not a murder defense. If a robust 80-year-old lived next to the frail one it is also not a murder defense. If the frail one was a stubborn old mule it is likewise not a murder defense. Maybe the neighborhood is better without the dead one, but that doesn't change that they were murdered.

stoolpigeon 3y ago
Getting rid of an industry that literally is killing people world wide is not the same as killing a person. It's the opposite, it is saving lives.
- RhysU 3y ago
  I am not arguing about any greater good. Killing is killing. My favorite joke here (SMBC?) is that the robbers that killed Batman's 2 parents did not save N-2 people because Batman saved N people.
  - stoolpigeon 3y ago
    You keep equating killing an industry with killing people - this is a false comparison. Ending the use of coal saves human lives and does not take any human lives. The batman comparison is irrelevant. No longer using asbestos saved lives and didn't take lives. Removing lead from consumer products saves lives and didn't take lives. I'm sure you there were people in the asbestos industry who weren't happy about the change and they would have gladly gone on giving people cancer. Just like people in the coal industry still bemoan the fact they can't keep killing as many people.
    - RhysU 3y ago
      If I kill a car's engine or kill the music or kill this conversation do you understand what I mean? The executive branch killed the coal industry. It was a swift action to bring something to a close. That people in this thread can't disentangle one sense of "kill" from another is disappointing. My "murder" examples probably didn’t help but I figured people might enjoy the nuances (All of them could have been written about turning off, or killing, a bad radio station vs a good radio station and the arguments hold). Lesson learned. My point has never been about the extent to which coal usage ends the life of humans. Frankly, that doesn't matter to anything I have said.
ke88y 3y ago
This sort of victim mentality is endemic to the region. WV could have taken the path of western PA. Not perfect, still some deep scars, but a flourishing new economy that can help pay for long term recovery and provided youth with some sort of future. WV chose victimhood over adaptation, for decades, and here we are. The article isn’t just about cutting humanities departments. WV is so thoroughly hollowed out that it can’t even afford to keep its flagship Computer Science department fully staffed. It’ll be left out of the great onshoring because there is not sufficient human capital or infrastructure. It’s the state government version of a private equity “strip mine the assets and wind it down” operation. Constant victimhood is a self fulfilling prophecy. Opportunities were there. WV was too busy being obstinate to take them.
- RhysU 3y ago
  Heh, this family is in Western PA which I left in the early 2000's for greener pastures outside of PA entirely. I love the area and the people, but pretending things are economically rosy in Western PA in the extraction areas undercuts your credibility. Leave Pittsburgh once in awhile.
  - morelisp 3y ago
    No one's saying things are economically fine in western PA. But, they can still easily afford to teach French.
  - ke88y 3y ago
    My comment notes there are still deep scars. > Leave Pittsburgh once in awhile. 1. These sorts of presumptive comments are presumptive and serve no purpose in the conversation. Believe it or not, you aren't the only person on the internet with your background. 2. Western PA is an enormous region, and it's not just Allegheny County that is doing well relative to West Virginia. 3. Having some base of economic activity outside of coal is still better than nothing, even if resulting employment is concentrated in metro areas.
- pirate787 3y ago
  It's not victimhood, its corruption and incompetence in a massively centralized state government system.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

jwells89 3y ago

As someone who was born and raised in WV, I’ll say that though the coal industry had been the state’s lifeline for over a century, the relationship was toxic at best. Appalachian coal miners are among the most used and abused groups of workers in modern history. The pay is good for the area yes, but it requires trading away your health and risking death. Coal companies are shameless when it comes to workers’ rights and that traces all the way back to their origin point. They’re part of the reason that governmental worker protections exist now. Realistically the state government should’ve started to seriously try to attract alternative industries decades ago, because the state was always going to spiral if it relied on coal… the only difference is the speed of the spiral.

paulmd 3y ago
Yup, things like “portal to portal” rules for Amazon warehouse workers have their origin in the subterranean portals of a mine, because coal companies didn’t want to pay their workers for the hour ride down or up the mineshaft. Which is the analogy Amazon drew to their frisk lines at the exits, even if they require it it’s not “part of the job” etc. Coal companies were the Uber of their time, “innovating” in a space and time when the law hadn’t kept up with industrial progress, and obviously one of the places you can extract value is from the welfare of your workers.

tzs 3y ago

> West Virginia’s issue — as a state - is a deep seated cultural unwillingness to adapt or change As illustrated by the 2016 election. One candidate said coal had played a vital role in making the US what it is but it is in decline due to both the need to address climate change and falling demand due to advances in other forms of energy production. That candidate proposed a $30 billion dollar plan to "ensure that coal miners and their families get the benefits they’ve earned and respect they deserve, to invest in economic diversification and job creation, and to make coal communities an engine of US economic growth in the 21st century as they have been for generations" [1]. The other candidate said he would reverse the decline in coal and bring back the jobs and mines that had gone away over the previous decade. He offered no hint at how he would accomplish that, and nearly all analysts and even more coal mine owners said that because of the shale revolution and the rapidly falling prices of wind and solar coal would remain in decline no matter what the government did West Virginia overwhelmingly voted for that second candidate giving him a larger percentage of their vote (68%) than any other state. [1] https://static.politico.com/b8/90/cbbc9c59413089d87e8d6340f13d/clinton-releases-30-billion-strategy-to-help-coal-communities.pdf https://static.politico.com/b8/90/cbbc9c59413089d87e8d6340f1...