7 ms·

A product using free and open-source data generated by the OSM community plus crowd sourcing traffic and keeping the code proprietary does not sit well with me.

A product using free and open-source data generated by the OSM community plus crowd sourcing traffic and keeping the code proprietary does not sit well with me. You can have a paid product but open source the project.

OGWhales 3y ago
An open-source alternative is Organic Maps: https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps
- kzrdude 3y ago
  Does it have live traffic information? It looks quite polished but for an offline feature set OsmAnd~ has a lot more and is more established. OsmAnd does not (to my knowledge) have any live traffic info.
  - benoliver999 3y ago
    No
  - OGWhales 3y ago
    Unfortunately it does not have live traffic data like the app it is forked from, maps.me. Hopefully they add it, but there aren’t many good open traffic projects that exist, so they’d need to rely on crowd sourced data like Magic Earth is doing and I’m not sure how well that would work.
  - hk__2 3y ago
    > It looks quite polished but for an offline feature set OsmAnd~ has a lot more and is more established OrganicMaps is a fork of Maps.me, which is very well known among the general public: 55k ratings on the Apple Store and 50M downloads on the Play Store for Maps.me vs. 1.8k and 10M for OsmAnd. Unfortunately a lot of people who use Maps.me/OrganicMaps don’t know that maps come from OSM, whereas with OsmAnd it’s clear right from the name.
    - kzrdude 3y ago
      OsmAnd feels like an app for a map nerd, and I like it.
    - matkoniecz 3y ago
      > Unfortunately a lot of people who use Maps.me/OrganicMaps don’t know that maps come from OSM OM has quite clear attribution, as required by ODBL license of OpenStreetMap data.
  - JeremyNT 3y ago
    Compared to OsmAnd, Organic Maps is quite basic. The advantage is that it does have a very streamlined UI, so if you just want to get to a map and navigate it's far more straightforward. You really need to spend some time to understand the "quirks" of how to use OsmAnd (a downside of its long feature list).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- executesorder66 3y ago
  I tend to agree with admaiora. And Organic Maps is a cool project. However I shared this post because it's the first OSM based map/routing project I've seen that actually has traffic data. I thought that was interesting. It is disappointing that the traffic info isn't open as well.
- striking 3y ago
  I ended up in the winding mountain roads near Saratoga without cell service, and though I had SF downloaded on Google Maps, I hadn't added the rest of the Bay. We decided we wanted to change our destination and realized we wouldn't have any further navigation only after canceling our current trip. But then I remembered I had Organic Maps tucked away, ready to go, with a highly detailed map of California for offline navigation use. Big thanks to Organic Maps for making me seem prepared and allowing me to recover gracefully from what could otherwise have been a somewhat annoying situation.
  - Zak 3y ago
    I always keep Organic Maps in reserve. Waze and Google Maps provide better navigation when they're working, but I've had them fail in places lacking mobile data even when I had offline maps downloaded to Google Maps. I've never seen Organic Maps fail.
    - hedora 3y ago
      Here We Go’s (previously, Nokia Maps) offline support is as good as Organic Maps, and the routing is as good as Google/Apple. It runs on iOS and Android. CarPlay support is good. Haven’t tried android’s car ui. I use it on my iPhone, but I’m rooting for OSM, long term. I’d happily pay a bit to a company that put the money towards an open source, privacy preserving OSM app, and towards improving the upstream map data.
      - richiebful1 3y ago
        How is address lookup? That's the only bad thing about OSM based apps vs Google Maps in my region (rural Kentucky)
        troyvit 3y ago
        It worked well when I used it. It was bought by Microsoft and is suffering the usual degradation that comes with that, but it's still a good app.
- mdaniel 3y ago
  > Receiving objects: 100% (556180/556180), 5.88 GiB | 3.33 MiB/s, done. What the holy hell is going on with that repo? do they `git add local.osm.dump` or something? I mean, I was kidding but evidently not that crazy far off: https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps/blob/master/data/World.mwm https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps/blob/master/data/... I was expecting to find `git add release/organicmaps-1.0.apk` which is a super common "I've never used git before" antipattern --- since I already paid the price, some `git archive HEAD | tar -tvf - | sort -k3 -n` coughed up -rw-rw-r-- root/root 1854526 2023-08-07 05:45 android/src/fdroid/play/listings/en-US/graphics/phone-screenshots/1.jpg -rw-rw-r-- root/root 1863096 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/mali_compiler_es3/openglessl/libMali-T600_r11p0-00rel0.so -rw-rw-r-- root/root 2583640 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/mali_compiler_es3/openglessl/libMali-T600_r12p0-00rel0.so -rw-rw-r-- root/root 3017640 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/mali_compiler_es3/openglessl/libMali-T600_r13p0-00rel0.so -rw-rw-r-- root/root 3155104 2023-08-07 05:45 data/06_code2000.ttf -rw-rw-r-- root/root 3451900 2023-08-07 05:45 data/02_droidsans-fallback.ttf -rw-rw-r-- root/root 3676527 2023-08-07 05:45 data/packed_polygons.bin -rw-rw-r-- root/root 4696613 2023-08-07 05:45 software_renderer/default_font.cpp -rwxrwxr-x root/root 6131664 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/glslangValidator -rwxrwxr-x root/root 6498904 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/macos/glslangValidator -rw-rw-r-- root/root 7315682 2023-08-07 05:45 3party/opening_hours/opening_hours_integration_tests/opening-count.lst -rw-rw-r-- root/root 8384030 2023-08-07 05:45 data/kml_test_data/test.kmz -rw-rw-r-- root/root 8757104 2023-08-07 05:45 data/WorldCoasts.mwm -rw-rw-r-- root/root 20,461,104 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/mali_compiler_es3/openglessl/libMali-Gxx_r3p0-00rel0.so -rw-rw-r-- root/root 43,812,962 2023-08-07 05:45 data/World.mwm -rw-rw-r-- root/root 50,994,390 2023-08-07 05:45 data/dictionary.slf and then, as I feared $ git log --format='%cs %s' -- data/World.mwm 2023-07-13 [planet] New data from 230710. 2023-06-05 [planet] New data from 230602. 2023-05-08 [planet] New data from 230503. 2023-04-02 [planet] New data from 230329. 2023-03-01 [planet] New data from 230227. 2023-02-13 [planet] New data from 230210. 2023-01-24 [planet] New data from 230121.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
It doesn't sit well with anyone familiar with OSM. This doesn't really have a good market fit; people who don't care about these things just use google, anyone that would use this won't use proprietary software, and especially anyone that uses OSM exclusively such as myself.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  The problem with crowdsourcing data is that you need a crowd, the bigger the better.
- Accacin 3y ago
  I run GrapheneOS, and have Magic Earth installed for car navigation. The reason for that is it's search actually works, it displays live traffic info, and they have a simple easy-to-read privacy policy: https://www.magicearth.com/privacy/ https://www.magicearth.com/privacy/ Would it be better open source? Yeah, for sure. However, as far as I can tell, they abide by all the licencing terms for OSM, etc.
  - gspencley 3y ago
    I also run GrapheneOS. Did you have to install Google Play to be able to install and use Magic Earth? I'm trying to keep my phone as de-Google'd as possible. That said, the one thing I miss from proprietary Android land is Google Maps so I am very interested in a comparable alternative. I'm trying Organic Maps at the moment, and had played with OsmAnd~ but found it lacking when I tried to use it for real-time navigation while driving.
    - morserer 3y ago
      F-Droid → Aurora Store for all your Play Store needs. No login needed.
      - gspencley 3y ago
        Thanks! Do you get many apps that complain about not having Google Play Services installed? Just had one (not Magic Earth). Seems to work fine after I hit "OK" to dismiss its message. I'm assuming it only requires it for auto installing updates.
Accacin 3y ago
Odd, because in reality they can do whatever the OSM licence allows. I still find it very odd that people have problems with projects using open source projects as the licence allows.
- StockHuman 3y ago
  The displeasure is the the same as that from “not returning the shopping cart;” it isn’t illegal to do so and no one will punish you, but the community as a whole is collectively taken advantage of when you do so.
  - foooorsyth 3y ago
    Terrible analogy. Returning the shopping cart is expected behavior of user as expressed by the grocery store. Expected user behavior as expressed by OSM is that you can use the data as you please, even for profit, and if you alter the data, you need to share that data back. That’s it. YOUR desired behavior for users of OSM’s data (open sourcing any app that uses it) really has no bearing. You aren’t the licensor and you have no say. Why do you feel as though you should get to impose your dogma on OSM’s data product?
ho_schi 3y ago
Describes Komoot and “social” media. I recommend Brouter instead of Komoot: https://bikerouter.de/ https://bikerouter.de/ Best thing. Your planned route isn’t stored there, it is your actual link to the website. Incredible simple and reusable.
- jeffreygoesto 3y ago
  Using BRouter together with OsmAnd for convertible (small roads) and bike (i.e. gravel paths) trips. Works like a charm and completely offline.
rglullis 3y ago
Is there a just-as-good FOSS alternative? Or at least one that could catch up if it receives more support?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
foooorsyth 3y ago
They’re not violating the OSM data license. Why would it “not sit well” with you that they keep their client closed source and try to earn a real living? >you can have a paid product but open source the project And you’ll instantly create 10 competitors overnight. If you use the GPL, those competitors will just be Chinese or from some non-western jurisdiction that doesn’t care about GPL enforcement. Man, rms followers are annoying. Stop trying to GPL the entire internet. Magic Earth is a great tool. A big part of why it’s great is probably because its authors were motivated by profit.
- dspillett 3y ago
  While your main point, that in this case no license or other agreement is being broken and there is no evidence to suggest that the OSM project is unhappy with the situation… > If you use the GPL, those competitors will just be Chinese or from some non-western jurisdiction that doesn’t care about GPL enforcement. This is true – some in China will use GPL code and not stick to the license and that may be a competitive advantage over companies that do play ball¹. But other people ignoring the license should not be considered a reason for anyone else not to, and that shouldn't stop people choosing the GPL if that is what they want for their software. > Man, rms followers are annoying. Stop trying to GPL the entire internet. Man, anti-GPL people are annoying. Stop trying to have someone else's cake and eat it. :) -- [1] Onyx and their Boox range² being one example, last I heard the company was trying to play the race card and make it an anti-China-sentiment issue instead of a blatantly-disregarding-a-license-agreement matter. [2] Not the only issue that puts me off those devices, apparently hidden call home code is present and always active on at least some of them.
  - foooorsyth 3y ago
    I’m not anti-GPL. I’m anti-FSF-fanatics-applying-GPL-dogma-to-non-GPL-projects. OSM doesn’t use the GPL or a GPL-like license for their data.
- edoloughlin 3y ago
  The post doesn't mention RMS, GPL or the entire internet. Is everything ok?
Zak 3y ago
While I'd prefer something completely community-driven and open source, the fact that this app is on the OSM wiki suggests the project is generally OK with it. I was just wishing for a Waze alternative last night, and here it is. It's proprietary and commercial, but it's not from FAANG or a company subject to the Chinese or Russian governments. I'll take that as an improvement. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Magic_Earth https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Magic_Earth
- pietervdvn 3y ago
  Being on the wiki does not necessarily indicate "official endorsement". However, as long as the app holds onto the official copyright guidelines (see https://openstreetmap.org/copyright https://openstreetmap.org/copyright - more or less equivalent to CC-BY-SA), a closed source,commercial app is perfectly fine.
mark_undoio 3y ago
I think the key thing with OSM is that the data is open. It would be nice if this app had more open code and it's nice if people contribute back to the data set too. But the database is the open source artifact here, not the software - as long as they're respecting that then it feels ok, even if more would be desirable.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> A product using free and open-source data generated by the OSM community plus crowd sourcing traffic and keeping the code proprietary does not sit well with me. This is already common. For example, Komoot which is now big in the bicycle-travel world, uses OSM data but keeps its code proprietary and even locks community-generated content down.

OGWhales 3y ago

An open-source alternative is Organic Maps: https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps

kzrdude 3y ago
Does it have live traffic information? It looks quite polished but for an offline feature set OsmAnd~ has a lot more and is more established. OsmAnd does not (to my knowledge) have any live traffic info.
- benoliver999 3y ago
  No
- OGWhales 3y ago
  Unfortunately it does not have live traffic data like the app it is forked from, maps.me. Hopefully they add it, but there aren’t many good open traffic projects that exist, so they’d need to rely on crowd sourced data like Magic Earth is doing and I’m not sure how well that would work.
- hk__2 3y ago
  > It looks quite polished but for an offline feature set OsmAnd~ has a lot more and is more established OrganicMaps is a fork of Maps.me, which is very well known among the general public: 55k ratings on the Apple Store and 50M downloads on the Play Store for Maps.me vs. 1.8k and 10M for OsmAnd. Unfortunately a lot of people who use Maps.me/OrganicMaps don’t know that maps come from OSM, whereas with OsmAnd it’s clear right from the name.
  - kzrdude 3y ago
    OsmAnd feels like an app for a map nerd, and I like it.
  - matkoniecz 3y ago
    > Unfortunately a lot of people who use Maps.me/OrganicMaps don’t know that maps come from OSM OM has quite clear attribution, as required by ODBL license of OpenStreetMap data.
- JeremyNT 3y ago
  Compared to OsmAnd, Organic Maps is quite basic. The advantage is that it does have a very streamlined UI, so if you just want to get to a map and navigate it's far more straightforward. You really need to spend some time to understand the "quirks" of how to use OsmAnd (a downside of its long feature list).
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
executesorder66 3y ago
I tend to agree with admaiora. And Organic Maps is a cool project. However I shared this post because it's the first OSM based map/routing project I've seen that actually has traffic data. I thought that was interesting. It is disappointing that the traffic info isn't open as well.
striking 3y ago
I ended up in the winding mountain roads near Saratoga without cell service, and though I had SF downloaded on Google Maps, I hadn't added the rest of the Bay. We decided we wanted to change our destination and realized we wouldn't have any further navigation only after canceling our current trip. But then I remembered I had Organic Maps tucked away, ready to go, with a highly detailed map of California for offline navigation use. Big thanks to Organic Maps for making me seem prepared and allowing me to recover gracefully from what could otherwise have been a somewhat annoying situation.
- Zak 3y ago
  I always keep Organic Maps in reserve. Waze and Google Maps provide better navigation when they're working, but I've had them fail in places lacking mobile data even when I had offline maps downloaded to Google Maps. I've never seen Organic Maps fail.
  - hedora 3y ago
    Here We Go’s (previously, Nokia Maps) offline support is as good as Organic Maps, and the routing is as good as Google/Apple. It runs on iOS and Android. CarPlay support is good. Haven’t tried android’s car ui. I use it on my iPhone, but I’m rooting for OSM, long term. I’d happily pay a bit to a company that put the money towards an open source, privacy preserving OSM app, and towards improving the upstream map data.
    - richiebful1 3y ago
      How is address lookup? That's the only bad thing about OSM based apps vs Google Maps in my region (rural Kentucky)
      - troyvit 3y ago
        It worked well when I used it. It was bought by Microsoft and is suffering the usual degradation that comes with that, but it's still a good app.
mdaniel 3y ago
> Receiving objects: 100% (556180/556180), 5.88 GiB | 3.33 MiB/s, done. What the holy hell is going on with that repo? do they `git add local.osm.dump` or something? I mean, I was kidding but evidently not that crazy far off: https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps/blob/master/data/World.mwm https://github.com/organicmaps/organicmaps/blob/master/data/... I was expecting to find `git add release/organicmaps-1.0.apk` which is a super common "I've never used git before" antipattern --- since I already paid the price, some `git archive HEAD | tar -tvf - | sort -k3 -n` coughed up -rw-rw-r-- root/root 1854526 2023-08-07 05:45 android/src/fdroid/play/listings/en-US/graphics/phone-screenshots/1.jpg -rw-rw-r-- root/root 1863096 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/mali_compiler_es3/openglessl/libMali-T600_r11p0-00rel0.so -rw-rw-r-- root/root 2583640 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/mali_compiler_es3/openglessl/libMali-T600_r12p0-00rel0.so -rw-rw-r-- root/root 3017640 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/mali_compiler_es3/openglessl/libMali-T600_r13p0-00rel0.so -rw-rw-r-- root/root 3155104 2023-08-07 05:45 data/06_code2000.ttf -rw-rw-r-- root/root 3451900 2023-08-07 05:45 data/02_droidsans-fallback.ttf -rw-rw-r-- root/root 3676527 2023-08-07 05:45 data/packed_polygons.bin -rw-rw-r-- root/root 4696613 2023-08-07 05:45 software_renderer/default_font.cpp -rwxrwxr-x root/root 6131664 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/glslangValidator -rwxrwxr-x root/root 6498904 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/macos/glslangValidator -rw-rw-r-- root/root 7315682 2023-08-07 05:45 3party/opening_hours/opening_hours_integration_tests/opening-count.lst -rw-rw-r-- root/root 8384030 2023-08-07 05:45 data/kml_test_data/test.kmz -rw-rw-r-- root/root 8757104 2023-08-07 05:45 data/WorldCoasts.mwm -rw-rw-r-- root/root 20,461,104 2023-08-07 05:45 tools/shaders_compiler/linux/mali_compiler_es3/openglessl/libMali-Gxx_r3p0-00rel0.so -rw-rw-r-- root/root 43,812,962 2023-08-07 05:45 data/World.mwm -rw-rw-r-- root/root 50,994,390 2023-08-07 05:45 data/dictionary.slf and then, as I feared $ git log --format='%cs %s' -- data/World.mwm 2023-07-13 [planet] New data from 230710. 2023-06-05 [planet] New data from 230602. 2023-05-08 [planet] New data from 230503. 2023-04-02 [planet] New data from 230329. 2023-03-01 [planet] New data from 230227. 2023-02-13 [planet] New data from 230210. 2023-01-24 [planet] New data from 230121.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

It doesn't sit well with anyone familiar with OSM. This doesn't really have a good market fit; people who don't care about these things just use google, anyone that would use this won't use proprietary software, and especially anyone that uses OSM exclusively such as myself.

nerdponx 3y ago
The problem with crowdsourcing data is that you need a crowd, the bigger the better.
Accacin 3y ago
I run GrapheneOS, and have Magic Earth installed for car navigation. The reason for that is it's search actually works, it displays live traffic info, and they have a simple easy-to-read privacy policy: https://www.magicearth.com/privacy/ https://www.magicearth.com/privacy/ Would it be better open source? Yeah, for sure. However, as far as I can tell, they abide by all the licencing terms for OSM, etc.
- gspencley 3y ago
  I also run GrapheneOS. Did you have to install Google Play to be able to install and use Magic Earth? I'm trying to keep my phone as de-Google'd as possible. That said, the one thing I miss from proprietary Android land is Google Maps so I am very interested in a comparable alternative. I'm trying Organic Maps at the moment, and had played with OsmAnd~ but found it lacking when I tried to use it for real-time navigation while driving.
  - morserer 3y ago
    F-Droid → Aurora Store for all your Play Store needs. No login needed.
    - gspencley 3y ago
      Thanks! Do you get many apps that complain about not having Google Play Services installed? Just had one (not Magic Earth). Seems to work fine after I hit "OK" to dismiss its message. I'm assuming it only requires it for auto installing updates.

Accacin 3y ago

Odd, because in reality they can do whatever the OSM licence allows. I still find it very odd that people have problems with projects using open source projects as the licence allows.

StockHuman 3y ago
The displeasure is the the same as that from “not returning the shopping cart;” it isn’t illegal to do so and no one will punish you, but the community as a whole is collectively taken advantage of when you do so.
- foooorsyth 3y ago
  Terrible analogy. Returning the shopping cart is expected behavior of user as expressed by the grocery store. Expected user behavior as expressed by OSM is that you can use the data as you please, even for profit, and if you alter the data, you need to share that data back. That’s it. YOUR desired behavior for users of OSM’s data (open sourcing any app that uses it) really has no bearing. You aren’t the licensor and you have no say. Why do you feel as though you should get to impose your dogma on OSM’s data product?

ho_schi 3y ago

Describes Komoot and “social” media. I recommend Brouter instead of Komoot: https://bikerouter.de/ https://bikerouter.de/ Best thing. Your planned route isn’t stored there, it is your actual link to the website. Incredible simple and reusable.

jeffreygoesto 3y ago
Using BRouter together with OsmAnd for convertible (small roads) and bike (i.e. gravel paths) trips. Works like a charm and completely offline.

rglullis 3y ago

Is there a just-as-good FOSS alternative? Or at least one that could catch up if it receives more support?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

foooorsyth 3y ago

They’re not violating the OSM data license. Why would it “not sit well” with you that they keep their client closed source and try to earn a real living? >you can have a paid product but open source the project And you’ll instantly create 10 competitors overnight. If you use the GPL, those competitors will just be Chinese or from some non-western jurisdiction that doesn’t care about GPL enforcement. Man, rms followers are annoying. Stop trying to GPL the entire internet. Magic Earth is a great tool. A big part of why it’s great is probably because its authors were motivated by profit.

dspillett 3y ago
While your main point, that in this case no license or other agreement is being broken and there is no evidence to suggest that the OSM project is unhappy with the situation… > If you use the GPL, those competitors will just be Chinese or from some non-western jurisdiction that doesn’t care about GPL enforcement. This is true – some in China will use GPL code and not stick to the license and that may be a competitive advantage over companies that do play ball¹. But other people ignoring the license should not be considered a reason for anyone else not to, and that shouldn't stop people choosing the GPL if that is what they want for their software. > Man, rms followers are annoying. Stop trying to GPL the entire internet. Man, anti-GPL people are annoying. Stop trying to have someone else's cake and eat it. :) -- [1] Onyx and their Boox range² being one example, last I heard the company was trying to play the race card and make it an anti-China-sentiment issue instead of a blatantly-disregarding-a-license-agreement matter. [2] Not the only issue that puts me off those devices, apparently hidden call home code is present and always active on at least some of them.
- foooorsyth 3y ago
  I’m not anti-GPL. I’m anti-FSF-fanatics-applying-GPL-dogma-to-non-GPL-projects. OSM doesn’t use the GPL or a GPL-like license for their data.
edoloughlin 3y ago
The post doesn't mention RMS, GPL or the entire internet. Is everything ok?

Zak 3y ago

While I'd prefer something completely community-driven and open source, the fact that this app is on the OSM wiki suggests the project is generally OK with it. I was just wishing for a Waze alternative last night, and here it is. It's proprietary and commercial, but it's not from FAANG or a company subject to the Chinese or Russian governments. I'll take that as an improvement. https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Magic_Earth https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Magic_Earth

pietervdvn 3y ago
Being on the wiki does not necessarily indicate "official endorsement". However, as long as the app holds onto the official copyright guidelines (see https://openstreetmap.org/copyright https://openstreetmap.org/copyright - more or less equivalent to CC-BY-SA), a closed source,commercial app is perfectly fine.

mark_undoio 3y ago

I think the key thing with OSM is that the data is open. It would be nice if this app had more open code and it's nice if people contribute back to the data set too. But the database is the open source artifact here, not the software - as long as they're respecting that then it feels ok, even if more would be desirable.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

> A product using free and open-source data generated by the OSM community plus crowd sourcing traffic and keeping the code proprietary does not sit well with me. This is already common. For example, Komoot which is now big in the bicycle-travel world, uses OSM data but keeps its code proprietary and even locks community-generated content down.