7 ms·

Homebrew Is Awesome

118 points by salmon 3y ago

happymellon 3y ago
Does homebrew still want you to chown system folders?
- jez 3y ago
  No, the default Homebrew install location moved to /opt/homebrew on new Apple Silicon Macs. (I don’t know why Intel Macs still use /usr/local.) In any case, it’s possible to choose a custom installation location, even on Intel Macs if you prefer. https://docs.brew.sh/Installation https://docs.brew.sh/Installation Further discussion on the decision: https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/9177 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/9177
  - mikemcquaid 3y ago
    /usr/local/bin still wants chowned on Intel Macs but we’re looking at ways of being more liberal there too.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      Nice. What about the default telemetry?
      - rickette 3y ago
        It's still opt-out, but they moved from Google Analytics to their own self-hosted InfluxDB for increased privacy.
      - mikemcquaid 3y ago
        The default telemetry is: - (still) not sent until we notify you that it's opt-out - moved (this year) from Google Analytics to our InfluxDB instance (destroying all existing GA data) - only kept for 365 days - contains no PII - no longer even attempts to identify individual users - necessary to be opt-in in order for us to be able to effectively run the project
        deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
        sneak 3y ago
        Imagine if you entered a party that had a big sign that says you consent to be groped by entering the venue. "But we notified you!" Consent does not work that way. It keeps being pointed out that this is a nonprofit run by volunteers - this simply underscores your utter lack of a legitimate business use case for spying on your users. The only reason people insist on opt-out (ie nonconsensual) telemetry is because they know they don't actually have consent and their ingest data would drop like a rock if they had to, you know, check with their users for consent before uploading their usage. It's the old "she never said stop!" dodge. Consent matters.
        mikemcquaid 3y ago
        Ah sneak, posting about analytics in every Homebrew thread. I thought you might like that we moved to InfluxDB but: no. A new low for you by literally comparing an open source project gathering analytics to sexual assault and rape this time.
        sneak 3y ago
        Rather than ad hominem, perhaps you could address the fundamental consent issue? It doesn't matter how you store the data obtained without consent. What you are doing is fundamentally unethical, and you only get away with it because most of your users are unaware that you are doing it. I post about it because your users deserve to know what you are silently using their computer to do each time they install a package. You have fooled them (and yourself) with this distraction about a "notice".
        mixmastamyk 3y ago
        Colorful imagery aside, this kind of response is a "new low" unfortunately.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    > you shouldn’t install outside the default, supported, best prefix So you can, but apparently you shouldn't.
    - Macha 3y ago
      The problem is binary artifacts of compiled software. Those native binaries have hardcoded paths to dependencies and so by changing the location, you're forcing homebrew to compile everything locally to use a different path. It's the same reason Nix is still at /nix, despite the quirky installation requirements it forces on modern Macs with SIP. There are tools to rewrite links in binaries, but they only work until you get a program calling dlopen or equivalent
      - happymellon 3y ago
        I was simply responding to the statement > its possible to choose a custom installation location, even on Intel Macs if you prefer. Whilst it is physically possible, it won't work. What would be better is a plan. Putting it in a different system folder like `opt` isn't much better.
        mikemcquaid 3y ago
        It does work, it's just not supported because the experience is worse. Open source (Homebrew included) is full of lots of plans: it's lacking people willing and able to execute on those plans. When or if that happens: Homebrew will support installations in more locations.
        happymellon 3y ago
        How is the experience worse if it works? The other explanations imply that it may not work due to hard coded paths.
        Macha 3y ago
        Because of the hardcoded paths, the precompiled artifacts will not work. Because of this, homebrew will need to run the build script locally. This means that the process takes longer, which is what makes the experience worse.
  - mort96 3y ago
    /opt/homebrew isn't a folder provided by the operating the system, but it's still a "system folder" as in not a user folder. That's messed up. I have to imagine that this causes no end of issues on multi-user machines. The homebrew folder should either be somewhere under ~, or owned by root or some other system account.
    - mikemcquaid 3y ago
      Most macOS developer machines (our primary/biggest target audience) are not multi-user machines. It's not owned by root because Homebrew doesn't run as root (because the macOS sandbox doesn't run as root). Nothing stopping you from having this owned by a system account, it's just not a path we recommend because it's not the best fit for most of our users.
    - mid-kid 3y ago
      Most compiled software gets its installation prefix hardcoded at build time. If you move the directory elsewhere, then everything needs to be recompiled.
    - duped 3y ago
      I remember having one user account for my personal stuff and another user account for work on a personal machine (startup life) and needing to chown brew's install folders whenever I switched users. Extremely annoying.
- deleted 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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mikemcquaid 3y ago
As someone who has been working on Homebrew for 14 years: it’s nice to see something positive about Homebrew on the front-page for a change. Homebrew is far from perfect or the best package manager but it is still surprising to me how much the Hacker News crowd likes to hate on something so ubiquitous with no meaningful corporate backing run by volunteers mostly in their spare time.
- widdershins 3y ago
  Don't let the haters get you down. I appreciate homebrew every day, and I know there are thousands more out there like me. It makes using a Mac so much more fun! I appreciate this because I sometimes have to use Windows, where package installation is... lacking.
- wellthisisgreat 3y ago
  Homebrew is among the top-3 reasons I enjoy developing on Mac. Thanks a lot for your work!
  - bartvk 3y ago
    What's great is that it can completely remove software from macOS. For instance, Google Chrome litters the filesystem and is not easy to clean up manually. Homebrew however can remove all traces by passing the --zap option: brew uninstall --zap google-chrome You can view the formula as follows: brew info --github google-chrome Look for the zap stanza, there's a whole list of folders.
    - supriyo-biswas 3y ago
      There’s also AppCleaner for those looking for a GUI.
      - hirvi74 3y ago
        I use them both at the same time for most GUI apps. I have noticed that --zap tends to leave a lot of remnants still that AppCleaner sometimes picks up.
bhouston 3y ago
Homebrew is awesome. It installs 80% of my macOS apps.
dengolius 3y ago
Homebrew is a horrible thing for user who is not familiar with ruby syntax. Community do not have any user friendly how-to guides for developing new Formulae as well as weird tests like to long description or to long line. For example I have a mono repository which contain Makefile and can produce one or six different executable tools. Four of these six tools are CLI utilities but the other three should work as a service. The problem I have encountered is the lack of documentation or an example of how to write auto-tests for daemons and for utilities in one formula because some of them require a working database from another Formula or in the root of the system. That is, it is very difficult to write such auto-tests, which would check workability, and really it was possible to run them when building the formula. Yes, the workaround is to make own repository with Homebrew Tap but better to have it in main repository when users could setup software without any additional action.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  I was like what? I’m not very familiar with ruby syntax and I’ve been a mostly happy user for years. But then I realized by user you meant someone who creates formulae, not someone who just uses it to install and manage packages
- mikemcquaid 3y ago
  I had literally never written any Ruby before contributing to Homebrew and now I write it for a living. This was when there was no documentation and now there is lots (https://docs.brew.sh https://docs.brew.sh, https://rubydoc.brew.sh https://rubydoc.brew.sh). I'm really not convinced that Ruby syntax is what makes the Homebrew formula DSL non-trivial. I've written enough YAML for k8s stuff that it seems like the language is rarely the cause of misunderstanding.
Alifatisk 3y ago
Been using Homebrew since 2015, I’ve seen negative comments about it. While some of them are true, I still love homebrew because how well it works out of the box. But If I know I am going to install multiple versions of a program ahead of time, I use asdf-vm instead
justinclift 3y ago
Doesn't S3Scanner seem like a weird thing to have in the Homebrew "core" repository, rather than be in its own tap?
- mikemcquaid 3y ago
  If it’s open source, doesn’t have a hilariously overinvolved and unreliable build process, is used by more than just the author: it’s best in the main repository.
danhodgins 3y ago
To everyone who created, maintains and improves Homebrew - thank you! It's an awesome solution that makes things really easy. Your work is appreciated.
michelangelo 3y ago
Happy to see op had a good experience with it. I chose to go back to MacPorts few years ago and only had splendid experiences with it so far.
phplovesong 3y ago
Homebrew is horrible. Want to update a single package? All hell breaks loose. Suddenly some weird version of Perl is being installed, and after that python is getting autoupdated. Make no sense at all. pkg-src is a better option.

Homebrew Is Awesome

118 points by salmon 3y ago

happymellon 3y ago

Does homebrew still want you to chown system folders?

jez 3y ago
No, the default Homebrew install location moved to /opt/homebrew on new Apple Silicon Macs. (I don’t know why Intel Macs still use /usr/local.) In any case, it’s possible to choose a custom installation location, even on Intel Macs if you prefer. https://docs.brew.sh/Installation https://docs.brew.sh/Installation Further discussion on the decision: https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/9177 https://github.com/Homebrew/brew/issues/9177
- mikemcquaid 3y ago
  /usr/local/bin still wants chowned on Intel Macs but we’re looking at ways of being more liberal there too.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Nice. What about the default telemetry?
    - rickette 3y ago
      It's still opt-out, but they moved from Google Analytics to their own self-hosted InfluxDB for increased privacy.
    - mikemcquaid 3y ago
      The default telemetry is: - (still) not sent until we notify you that it's opt-out - moved (this year) from Google Analytics to our InfluxDB instance (destroying all existing GA data) - only kept for 365 days - contains no PII - no longer even attempts to identify individual users - necessary to be opt-in in order for us to be able to effectively run the project
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - sneak 3y ago
        Imagine if you entered a party that had a big sign that says you consent to be groped by entering the venue. "But we notified you!" Consent does not work that way. It keeps being pointed out that this is a nonprofit run by volunteers - this simply underscores your utter lack of a legitimate business use case for spying on your users. The only reason people insist on opt-out (ie nonconsensual) telemetry is because they know they don't actually have consent and their ingest data would drop like a rock if they had to, you know, check with their users for consent before uploading their usage. It's the old "she never said stop!" dodge. Consent matters.
        mikemcquaid 3y ago
        Ah sneak, posting about analytics in every Homebrew thread. I thought you might like that we moved to InfluxDB but: no. A new low for you by literally comparing an open source project gathering analytics to sexual assault and rape this time.
        sneak 3y ago
        Rather than ad hominem, perhaps you could address the fundamental consent issue? It doesn't matter how you store the data obtained without consent. What you are doing is fundamentally unethical, and you only get away with it because most of your users are unaware that you are doing it. I post about it because your users deserve to know what you are silently using their computer to do each time they install a package. You have fooled them (and yourself) with this distraction about a "notice".
        mixmastamyk 3y ago
        Colorful imagery aside, this kind of response is a "new low" unfortunately.
- happymellon 3y ago
  > you shouldn’t install outside the default, supported, best prefix So you can, but apparently you shouldn't.
  - Macha 3y ago
    The problem is binary artifacts of compiled software. Those native binaries have hardcoded paths to dependencies and so by changing the location, you're forcing homebrew to compile everything locally to use a different path. It's the same reason Nix is still at /nix, despite the quirky installation requirements it forces on modern Macs with SIP. There are tools to rewrite links in binaries, but they only work until you get a program calling dlopen or equivalent
    - happymellon 3y ago
      I was simply responding to the statement > its possible to choose a custom installation location, even on Intel Macs if you prefer. Whilst it is physically possible, it won't work. What would be better is a plan. Putting it in a different system folder like `opt` isn't much better.
      - mikemcquaid 3y ago
        It does work, it's just not supported because the experience is worse. Open source (Homebrew included) is full of lots of plans: it's lacking people willing and able to execute on those plans. When or if that happens: Homebrew will support installations in more locations.
        happymellon 3y ago
        How is the experience worse if it works? The other explanations imply that it may not work due to hard coded paths.
        Macha 3y ago
        Because of the hardcoded paths, the precompiled artifacts will not work. Because of this, homebrew will need to run the build script locally. This means that the process takes longer, which is what makes the experience worse.
- mort96 3y ago
  /opt/homebrew isn't a folder provided by the operating the system, but it's still a "system folder" as in not a user folder. That's messed up. I have to imagine that this causes no end of issues on multi-user machines. The homebrew folder should either be somewhere under ~, or owned by root or some other system account.
  - mikemcquaid 3y ago
    Most macOS developer machines (our primary/biggest target audience) are not multi-user machines. It's not owned by root because Homebrew doesn't run as root (because the macOS sandbox doesn't run as root). Nothing stopping you from having this owned by a system account, it's just not a path we recommend because it's not the best fit for most of our users.
  - mid-kid 3y ago
    Most compiled software gets its installation prefix hardcoded at build time. If you move the directory elsewhere, then everything needs to be recompiled.
  - duped 3y ago
    I remember having one user account for my personal stuff and another user account for work on a personal machine (startup life) and needing to chown brew's install folders whenever I switched users. Extremely annoying.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

mikemcquaid 3y ago

As someone who has been working on Homebrew for 14 years: it’s nice to see something positive about Homebrew on the front-page for a change. Homebrew is far from perfect or the best package manager but it is still surprising to me how much the Hacker News crowd likes to hate on something so ubiquitous with no meaningful corporate backing run by volunteers mostly in their spare time.

widdershins 3y ago
Don't let the haters get you down. I appreciate homebrew every day, and I know there are thousands more out there like me. It makes using a Mac so much more fun! I appreciate this because I sometimes have to use Windows, where package installation is... lacking.
wellthisisgreat 3y ago
Homebrew is among the top-3 reasons I enjoy developing on Mac. Thanks a lot for your work!
- bartvk 3y ago
  What's great is that it can completely remove software from macOS. For instance, Google Chrome litters the filesystem and is not easy to clean up manually. Homebrew however can remove all traces by passing the --zap option: brew uninstall --zap google-chrome You can view the formula as follows: brew info --github google-chrome Look for the zap stanza, there's a whole list of folders.
  - supriyo-biswas 3y ago
    There’s also AppCleaner for those looking for a GUI.
    - hirvi74 3y ago
      I use them both at the same time for most GUI apps. I have noticed that --zap tends to leave a lot of remnants still that AppCleaner sometimes picks up.

bhouston 3y ago

Homebrew is awesome. It installs 80% of my macOS apps.

dengolius 3y ago

Homebrew is a horrible thing for user who is not familiar with ruby syntax. Community do not have any user friendly how-to guides for developing new Formulae as well as weird tests like to long description or to long line. For example I have a mono repository which contain Makefile and can produce one or six different executable tools. Four of these six tools are CLI utilities but the other three should work as a service. The problem I have encountered is the lack of documentation or an example of how to write auto-tests for daemons and for utilities in one formula because some of them require a working database from another Formula or in the root of the system. That is, it is very difficult to write such auto-tests, which would check workability, and really it was possible to run them when building the formula. Yes, the workaround is to make own repository with Homebrew Tap but better to have it in main repository when users could setup software without any additional action.

SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
I was like what? I’m not very familiar with ruby syntax and I’ve been a mostly happy user for years. But then I realized by user you meant someone who creates formulae, not someone who just uses it to install and manage packages
mikemcquaid 3y ago
I had literally never written any Ruby before contributing to Homebrew and now I write it for a living. This was when there was no documentation and now there is lots (https://docs.brew.sh https://docs.brew.sh, https://rubydoc.brew.sh https://rubydoc.brew.sh). I'm really not convinced that Ruby syntax is what makes the Homebrew formula DSL non-trivial. I've written enough YAML for k8s stuff that it seems like the language is rarely the cause of misunderstanding.

Alifatisk 3y ago

Been using Homebrew since 2015, I’ve seen negative comments about it. While some of them are true, I still love homebrew because how well it works out of the box. But If I know I am going to install multiple versions of a program ahead of time, I use asdf-vm instead

justinclift 3y ago

Doesn't S3Scanner seem like a weird thing to have in the Homebrew "core" repository, rather than be in its own tap?

mikemcquaid 3y ago
If it’s open source, doesn’t have a hilariously overinvolved and unreliable build process, is used by more than just the author: it’s best in the main repository.

danhodgins 3y ago

To everyone who created, maintains and improves Homebrew - thank you! It's an awesome solution that makes things really easy. Your work is appreciated.

michelangelo 3y ago

Happy to see op had a good experience with it. I chose to go back to MacPorts few years ago and only had splendid experiences with it so far.

phplovesong 3y ago

Homebrew is horrible. Want to update a single package? All hell breaks loose. Suddenly some weird version of Perl is being installed, and after that python is getting autoupdated. Make no sense at all. pkg-src is a better option.