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" Is the omnipresence of elves and dwarves in modern fantasy all theft from Tolkien?" In the form they seem to all take? Yea, it really kinda is... at best it

" Is the omnipresence of elves and dwarves in modern fantasy all theft from Tolkien?" In the form they seem to all take? Yea, it really kinda is... at best it's appropriation. This isn't even a question for those who studied the topics is it? Here's a link from a quick Google that goes over the topics. https://jamestkelly.com/8-ways-tolkien-changed-modern-fantasy-forever/ https://jamestkelly.com/8-ways-tolkien-changed-modern-fantas... Tolkienesque elves and dwarves are only superficially similar to those mythological creatures which inspired them, with the subsequent prevailing forms used throughout fantasy being clearly derivative if not outright copies of his work (or as close as possible without violation of IP). Your whole position seems to be born of the same "dumb take" behavior you're supposedly decrying, no?

thefurdrake 3y ago
> Your whole position seems to be born of the same "dumb take" behavior you're supposedly decrying, no? It's not stealing, so no. Figure it out. Writers synthesize ideas based on the ones they already experienced and their own personality. To suggest that yes, it is stealing, is to have a fundamental misconception about the function of the creative process.
- DropInIn 3y ago
  Notice I said "at best it's appropriation"? The form is explicitly that defined by tolkien, with so many elements not found in the traditional forms and elements missing that are found in the traditional forms to be viewed as explicitly copied from Tolkien. Your position is like saying that it wouldn't be any form of IP theft to use all the elements of Diablo IP including names, culture, historical features and other aspects so long as it wasn't actually in the world of Diablo... and I'm pretty sure the IP law is settled on that matter, isn't it?
  - thefurdrake 3y ago
    Hmm. Yeah, I thought about this a bit more. There are definitely cases where I've seen elves ripped off so thoroughly that it was clear the author put zero thought into them as a race/species, lifting them straight out of Rivendel. That's obviously not cool. However, I don't think most instances of elves as Tall Fair Folk hit that bar of being straight-up lifted. I don't see very many instances of "names, culture, historical features" being taken from Middle Earth, and that would OBVIOUSLY be unacceptable. > I'm pretty sure the IP law is settled on that matter, isn't it? Yeah, it sure is! The owners of the Tolkien empire are quite active about pursuing litigation against those who infringe upon their rights. They even win a lot of cases! However, I've yet to hear of a storm of litigation sweeping through the fantasy writing industry involving them going after theft of species in peoples' stories. I'd be super, super interested to see some cases where this has happened, if you believe it's been settled some other way.
    - DropInIn 3y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves_in_Middle-earth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves_in_Middle-earth Elves were not tall folk, that came from an interpretation of icelandic folklore where he lumped that variant in with Giants... in almost all traditional lore elves were either diminutive like Gnomes or were at most the dame size as humans. Many other features are also from specific variants that he amalgamated in but most would not consider to be in the "main" folklore. I had a longer response but accidentally refreshed the page and have no interest in typing that much again on my phone. As for cases, DnD changed thier "races" in response to violations raised in court iirc. They pushed right to the line as close as possible and that was long before we reached modern IP law which is exceedingly more stringent than back in the 80s, right?
      - thefurdrake 3y ago
        > As for cases, DnD changed thier "races" in response to violations raised in court iirc. They pushed right to the line as close as possible and that was long before we reached modern IP law which is exceedingly more stringent than back in the 80s, right? Yes. They also go after orgs that were printing commemorative coins and succeeded. In this instance, they went after TSR for straight ripping things for their game. That still doesn't address what I was referring to, however. I haven't seen any push by the Tolkien Society to go after this alleged "stealing" of Tolkien's ideas through the inclusion of Tolkien-distinct elves (and they are very distinct from their source, as you pointed out) or other species. Which is interesting, because they Tolkien Society actually has the audacity to claim you're not allowed to write fanfiction: "[...]This means that you cannot copy any part of Tolkien’s writings or images, nor can you create materials which refer to the characters, stories, places, events or other elements contained in any of Tolkien’s works." Aside from being so absolutely full of themselves, they still aren't engaging in attempting to stop authors from "stealing". Because they have no legal basis for it and know it. Because it's not actually "stealing" when authors adopt them into their worlds if they're not, as you said, taking names, culture, [and] historical features. There's no legal grounds and they know it. The Tolkien Estate recently rewrote their "rules" in the last couple years, reflecting a much-stronger stance on derivative works. And yet, I don't think you'll be able to show me many instances of them "protecting their IP" against authors. I've looked. [1] https://www.tolkienestate.com/frequently-asked-questions-and-links/ https://www.tolkienestate.com/frequently-asked-questions-and...

thefurdrake 3y ago

> Your whole position seems to be born of the same "dumb take" behavior you're supposedly decrying, no? It's not stealing, so no. Figure it out. Writers synthesize ideas based on the ones they already experienced and their own personality. To suggest that yes, it is stealing, is to have a fundamental misconception about the function of the creative process.

DropInIn 3y ago
Notice I said "at best it's appropriation"? The form is explicitly that defined by tolkien, with so many elements not found in the traditional forms and elements missing that are found in the traditional forms to be viewed as explicitly copied from Tolkien. Your position is like saying that it wouldn't be any form of IP theft to use all the elements of Diablo IP including names, culture, historical features and other aspects so long as it wasn't actually in the world of Diablo... and I'm pretty sure the IP law is settled on that matter, isn't it?
- thefurdrake 3y ago
  Hmm. Yeah, I thought about this a bit more. There are definitely cases where I've seen elves ripped off so thoroughly that it was clear the author put zero thought into them as a race/species, lifting them straight out of Rivendel. That's obviously not cool. However, I don't think most instances of elves as Tall Fair Folk hit that bar of being straight-up lifted. I don't see very many instances of "names, culture, historical features" being taken from Middle Earth, and that would OBVIOUSLY be unacceptable. > I'm pretty sure the IP law is settled on that matter, isn't it? Yeah, it sure is! The owners of the Tolkien empire are quite active about pursuing litigation against those who infringe upon their rights. They even win a lot of cases! However, I've yet to hear of a storm of litigation sweeping through the fantasy writing industry involving them going after theft of species in peoples' stories. I'd be super, super interested to see some cases where this has happened, if you believe it's been settled some other way.
  - DropInIn 3y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves_in_Middle-earth https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elves_in_Middle-earth Elves were not tall folk, that came from an interpretation of icelandic folklore where he lumped that variant in with Giants... in almost all traditional lore elves were either diminutive like Gnomes or were at most the dame size as humans. Many other features are also from specific variants that he amalgamated in but most would not consider to be in the "main" folklore. I had a longer response but accidentally refreshed the page and have no interest in typing that much again on my phone. As for cases, DnD changed thier "races" in response to violations raised in court iirc. They pushed right to the line as close as possible and that was long before we reached modern IP law which is exceedingly more stringent than back in the 80s, right?
    - thefurdrake 3y ago
      > As for cases, DnD changed thier "races" in response to violations raised in court iirc. They pushed right to the line as close as possible and that was long before we reached modern IP law which is exceedingly more stringent than back in the 80s, right? Yes. They also go after orgs that were printing commemorative coins and succeeded. In this instance, they went after TSR for straight ripping things for their game. That still doesn't address what I was referring to, however. I haven't seen any push by the Tolkien Society to go after this alleged "stealing" of Tolkien's ideas through the inclusion of Tolkien-distinct elves (and they are very distinct from their source, as you pointed out) or other species. Which is interesting, because they Tolkien Society actually has the audacity to claim you're not allowed to write fanfiction: "[...]This means that you cannot copy any part of Tolkien’s writings or images, nor can you create materials which refer to the characters, stories, places, events or other elements contained in any of Tolkien’s works." Aside from being so absolutely full of themselves, they still aren't engaging in attempting to stop authors from "stealing". Because they have no legal basis for it and know it. Because it's not actually "stealing" when authors adopt them into their worlds if they're not, as you said, taking names, culture, [and] historical features. There's no legal grounds and they know it. The Tolkien Estate recently rewrote their "rules" in the last couple years, reflecting a much-stronger stance on derivative works. And yet, I don't think you'll be able to show me many instances of them "protecting their IP" against authors. I've looked. [1] https://www.tolkienestate.com/frequently-asked-questions-and-links/ https://www.tolkienestate.com/frequently-asked-questions-and...