5 ms·

I don't agree. Germany for example is pretty shameless beyond the shame border in USA. To give you a few maybe extreme examples (which does not apply to all peo

I don't agree. Germany for example is pretty shameless beyond the shame border in USA. To give you a few maybe extreme examples (which does not apply to all people in Germany and not all this examples are sexual): Mixed saunas, swinger clubs, open relationships, no shame on being naked in designated nudity areas, topless DJs, a naked women is not a big skandal etc. Yet Germany does not have the drug problems which Oregon has. USA has a big shame problem (just look at IG) in sense of nudity and nipples (which is spreading around the globe thanks to US tech) yet you say shame is devalued in USA. I think I just debunked your theory (sorry for that) but it's not shame.

unlikelymordant 3y ago
Being ashamed about nudity is i beieve a totally different thing. The shame op is talking about is feeling bad when you have cheated your neighbours, or being ashamed of doing something that lands you in jail i.e. caring about your reputation as a good human. Nudity in public is completely orthogonal to any of that imho, and is more of a cultural norm.
- oldpmfan 3y ago
  total nudity is in relation to reputation to being as a good human for many US Americans. Of course there is also some value in your proposition but saying that a society is totally shameless yet keeps cultural norms very high (like USA with nudity) does contradict the initial claim. It's something else then.
  - unlikelymordant 3y ago
    I get what you are saying. Perhaps its a morphing of what exactly people find shameful is the thing OP was talking about then. Where he identifies a lack of shame, its really just the shame is concentrated on completely different actions, and it makes the culture seem strange and wrong to a person on the other side.
rayiner 3y ago
You’re giving examples of where the German social norms allow things that are taboo under US social norms. That’s not what shame is about. Shame is a feeling that societies use to enforce social norms and taboos—whatever those norms happen to be. America is a very individualistic society—people can violate social norms and they don’t feel shame, because they say “who cares what other people think?” My impression of Germany—which is second hand, my wife lived there and I know lots of Germans—is that it is a less individualistic society. Society might allow certain things, but where society doesn't allow those things, there is strong shame-based social pressure. At least when my wife was living in east Germany in the early 2000s, drug use was one of those taboos. When she mentioned smoking marijuana—something that didn’t raise eyebrows among other teenagers at her rural Iowa high school—the reaction from German students was very negative.
- oldpmfan 3y ago
  I was born and raised in Germany and I give a f*ck what other people think (I care ZERO percent). But to be honest I also left Germany (because I'm fortunate enough to do that) because society is blind in sense of taxes, social insurance etc especially if you are an entrepreneur. Rich or wealthy people in Germany are considered to be thieves or inherits of something/somebody. Believe it or not but many Germans feel ashamed when being wealthy (or they do not speak about their wealth ever, keep it a secret). My thinking is that shame is a very broad term and there are many societies on Earth which are more shameless than USA with relaxed drug laws and DO NOT HAVE that drug problem.
  - PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
    > Rich or wealthy people in Germany are considered to be thieves or inherits of something/somebody. Believe it or not but many Germans feel ashamed when being wealthy (or they do not speak about their wealth ever, keep it a secret). Yay, another thing Germany (post-WWII) got right, in addition to mechanical and electrical engineering and the early use of synthesizers.
    - constantcrying 3y ago
flycaliguy 3y ago
I’ve been shamed for j-walking in Germany. Sorry, you didn’t debunk anything you just invited a bunch of puritanical nonsense to the nude beach.
- nmfisher 3y ago
  Me too, but that goes to prove OP's point. Jay-walking isn't just a crime, it's basically a social faux in Germany, which is why it doesn't happen that often.
hackinthebochs 3y ago
Your response misses the target the parent was getting at. There are laws that constrain behavior in public places derived from the taboos of the past. This is what you are referring to when you talk about limits to nudity and such. These laws may derive from shame culture of the past, but they have modern relevance largely due to the existence of laws. There's another form of shame culture that isn't codified into law but constrains behavior due to the potential reduction in social status for breaking various taboos. Essentially part one's feelings of status is sourced externally and this provides a moderating effect on one's behavior. The problem is that modern society has seen a stark reduction in the effectiveness of this kind of shame culture. We've essentially devalued the prevailing culture in favor of various sub/counter cultures. Now every degenerate interest has a sub-culture formed around it that insulates anyone who identifies with it from the shame of going against the prevailing culture. The usefulness of shame for reinforcing social norms has been eliminated to disastrous effect.
- ClumsyPilot 3y ago
  It is not, in fact, different at all. Being seen naked in public affects your status. Being seen consuming drugs affects your status. All shame is, is degradation of your status.
  - hackinthebochs 3y ago
    The issue isn't about an external person's judgment, but one's sensitivity to an external person's judgment. The point is that mainstream culture has been devalued such that sensitivity to alterations in status as judged by people deemed "mainstream" is much less relevant to an average person these days, especially in younger folks. If there were no laws about public nudity, there are subcultures that absolutely would go around naked and would be immune to shame from mainstream culture.
constantcrying 3y ago
>I think I just debunked your theory (sorry for that) but it's not shame. You didn't. It is even somewhat irrelevant, as being shamed for sexual perversion is utterly unrelated to not being ashamed of using drugs.
tayo42 3y ago
How many social safety nets does Germany have compared to the US and Oregon. My guess is a lot more and probably a less isolated culture, more family friends around, cheaper cost of living too. This shame thing your all rambling seems to be a red herring
whearyou 3y ago
But in Germany, if you cut in line, huge shame. I’m in Israel, not as many orgy clubs (I assume?) but more people cut in line. There’s shame about different things.

unlikelymordant 3y ago

Being ashamed about nudity is i beieve a totally different thing. The shame op is talking about is feeling bad when you have cheated your neighbours, or being ashamed of doing something that lands you in jail i.e. caring about your reputation as a good human. Nudity in public is completely orthogonal to any of that imho, and is more of a cultural norm.

oldpmfan 3y ago
total nudity is in relation to reputation to being as a good human for many US Americans. Of course there is also some value in your proposition but saying that a society is totally shameless yet keeps cultural norms very high (like USA with nudity) does contradict the initial claim. It's something else then.
- unlikelymordant 3y ago
  I get what you are saying. Perhaps its a morphing of what exactly people find shameful is the thing OP was talking about then. Where he identifies a lack of shame, its really just the shame is concentrated on completely different actions, and it makes the culture seem strange and wrong to a person on the other side.

rayiner 3y ago

You’re giving examples of where the German social norms allow things that are taboo under US social norms. That’s not what shame is about. Shame is a feeling that societies use to enforce social norms and taboos—whatever those norms happen to be. America is a very individualistic society—people can violate social norms and they don’t feel shame, because they say “who cares what other people think?” My impression of Germany—which is second hand, my wife lived there and I know lots of Germans—is that it is a less individualistic society. Society might allow certain things, but where society doesn't allow those things, there is strong shame-based social pressure. At least when my wife was living in east Germany in the early 2000s, drug use was one of those taboos. When she mentioned smoking marijuana—something that didn’t raise eyebrows among other teenagers at her rural Iowa high school—the reaction from German students was very negative.

oldpmfan 3y ago
I was born and raised in Germany and I give a f*ck what other people think (I care ZERO percent). But to be honest I also left Germany (because I'm fortunate enough to do that) because society is blind in sense of taxes, social insurance etc especially if you are an entrepreneur. Rich or wealthy people in Germany are considered to be thieves or inherits of something/somebody. Believe it or not but many Germans feel ashamed when being wealthy (or they do not speak about their wealth ever, keep it a secret). My thinking is that shame is a very broad term and there are many societies on Earth which are more shameless than USA with relaxed drug laws and DO NOT HAVE that drug problem.
- PaulDavisThe1st 3y ago
  > Rich or wealthy people in Germany are considered to be thieves or inherits of something/somebody. Believe it or not but many Germans feel ashamed when being wealthy (or they do not speak about their wealth ever, keep it a secret). Yay, another thing Germany (post-WWII) got right, in addition to mechanical and electrical engineering and the early use of synthesizers.
  - constantcrying 3y ago

flycaliguy 3y ago

I’ve been shamed for j-walking in Germany. Sorry, you didn’t debunk anything you just invited a bunch of puritanical nonsense to the nude beach.

nmfisher 3y ago
Me too, but that goes to prove OP's point. Jay-walking isn't just a crime, it's basically a social faux in Germany, which is why it doesn't happen that often.

hackinthebochs 3y ago

Your response misses the target the parent was getting at. There are laws that constrain behavior in public places derived from the taboos of the past. This is what you are referring to when you talk about limits to nudity and such. These laws may derive from shame culture of the past, but they have modern relevance largely due to the existence of laws. There's another form of shame culture that isn't codified into law but constrains behavior due to the potential reduction in social status for breaking various taboos. Essentially part one's feelings of status is sourced externally and this provides a moderating effect on one's behavior. The problem is that modern society has seen a stark reduction in the effectiveness of this kind of shame culture. We've essentially devalued the prevailing culture in favor of various sub/counter cultures. Now every degenerate interest has a sub-culture formed around it that insulates anyone who identifies with it from the shame of going against the prevailing culture. The usefulness of shame for reinforcing social norms has been eliminated to disastrous effect.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago
It is not, in fact, different at all. Being seen naked in public affects your status. Being seen consuming drugs affects your status. All shame is, is degradation of your status.
- hackinthebochs 3y ago
  The issue isn't about an external person's judgment, but one's sensitivity to an external person's judgment. The point is that mainstream culture has been devalued such that sensitivity to alterations in status as judged by people deemed "mainstream" is much less relevant to an average person these days, especially in younger folks. If there were no laws about public nudity, there are subcultures that absolutely would go around naked and would be immune to shame from mainstream culture.

constantcrying 3y ago

>I think I just debunked your theory (sorry for that) but it's not shame. You didn't. It is even somewhat irrelevant, as being shamed for sexual perversion is utterly unrelated to not being ashamed of using drugs.

tayo42 3y ago

How many social safety nets does Germany have compared to the US and Oregon. My guess is a lot more and probably a less isolated culture, more family friends around, cheaper cost of living too. This shame thing your all rambling seems to be a red herring

whearyou 3y ago

But in Germany, if you cut in line, huge shame. I’m in Israel, not as many orgy clubs (I assume?) but more people cut in line. There’s shame about different things.