13 ms·

It is unclear who wants RTO, at least within tech and other leaders whom I know within tech.

warning26 3y ago
Some people do and some people don’t. It seems to me it’s largely a matter of personal preference. I worked from home before the pandemic, hated it, and vowed to never do it again. Then the pandemic happened.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  I worked remote for a year before the pandemic for health reasons and didn't like it much, was looking forward to going back. The pandemic was a huge rearrangement to so many things though. It forced through a lot of the accommodations that previously I had to beg and fight for. Got everyone used to having to write more, have video option for all meetings, train judgement about what can be async etc. It also normalized the lunch errand, the early dinner then back at work, the "I might just be away from the computer when you message me" dynamic that makes remote work genuinely fulfilling. I no longer feel like I'm committing a moral transgression against my coworkers by stopping to help a family member with a chore or whatever. I once said I would never willingly do remote. Now I say I'll never willingly work from an office regularly. I might turn out to be as wrong about this as I was about that, we'll see.
  - pfannkuchen 3y ago
    A lot of these things seemed normal to me in Bay Area tech companies pre pandemic (large companies, not even startups). I always left the office in the middle of the day to do errands or go to the gym and never felt bad about it. I can’t tell if I somehow had an unusual experience within those companies, or if it’s just that most people on HN work at more restrictive companies.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      Bay area tech companies aren't the norm even for programmers. There are like 4 million software devs in the US, most of us are working at companies you've never heard of, and have office norms much closer to that of the rest of office workers. Often somewhat more prestige and flexibility, but not so dramatic. So yes I think your experience is probably an outlier. And on HN generally I think that sort of environment is overrepresented still.
dogma1138 3y ago
Those who are entering the workforce, remote working is fun for greybeards and terrible for fresh grads, interns and apprentices.
- thanatropism 3y ago
  Then, isn't the long duree view of technology about replacing apprenticeship learning (sit with the master welder, clean the shop, watch him work -- this doesn't cut in software)? Sometimes with explicit learning (linear algebra), sometimes just with low-friction entry points into professions.
- losteric 3y ago
  Fresh grads, interns, and apprentices typically uproot their lives to move to tech hubs, as do older populations. That is the terrible effect - getting dropped in a strange new location with minimal network. Of course letting "locals" work remotely would make that situation worse, agreed. So completely do away with tech hubs. People can continue to grow organically, they are free to stay or move as makes sense to them individually. As a society, we should be striving to continue decoupling work from our identity.
  - fingerprinted0 3y ago
    [dead]
  - ethbr0 3y ago
    And critically, housing prices. New employees, at the bottom of the pay scale, are competing with employees making far more (with vesting) for homes. Democratizing this across a larger number of cities (and towns!) seems healthy. Disclaimer: Biased, as have to move regularly for spouse's job, so RTO wouldn't work for me.
    - spacemadness 3y ago
      I like that workers themselves need to “rebel” against the powers that be to solve this as we are completely incapable of improving the housing crisis otherwise. Nimbys, geriatric government ineptitude, and corporate investment is actively working against new home owners. It’s complete generational theft that seeks to turn everyone into a renter for life.
DiggyJohnson 3y ago
I prefer RTO and being in the office with the entire team. That doesn't make me crazy, and I know several others on my team feel the same way.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  I don't think anyone is trying to prevent people who prefer that from forming teams and even companies around the practice. We're trying to prevent reverting to that being the mandatory norm for all workers though.
- andrewaylett 3y ago
  I don't mind occasionally being in the office with my entire team. The problem is that my team is split across three offices in different cities. We have folk who prefer to work from the office, and that's fine. But it makes team meetings more challenging than they are when everyone's at home. When we were only spread across two offices, we'd occasionally have a team day in one or other of the offices. But the third office is much further away.
  - DiggyJohnson 3y ago
    Oh certainly: in the case of distributed teams I much prefer WFH.
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      Aren't distributed teams basically the norm nowadays? It has been a long time since I worked with my whole team in a single office. Between outsourcing, satellite offices and remote employees, almost no team I see nowadays has everyone in the same office.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  Do you enjoy the unpaid commute time?
  - 3y ago
andersa 3y ago
The people who have investments in commercial real estate want it. All those ginormous office buildings... would be obsolete.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  > would be obsolete I doubt this. Would probably be cheaper, but I doubt the rental market is so inelastic that the new price will break anything.
  - andersa 3y ago
    I wonder if they could be turned into apartments or something else useful.
    - marcosdumay 3y ago
      There are always some discussion about turning them into apartments here on HN. My conclusion from them is that no, they couldn't. But they could be turned into something else useful. All that space close to each other and at the destination of every transportation structure will find a usage.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
msluyter 3y ago
FWIW, I think Scott Galloway has an interesting take on this: https://www.profgalloway.com/work-from-office/ https://www.profgalloway.com/work-from-office/ One of his arguments is that for younger employees, in that it provides an opportunity to create social connections. For example, it appears that ~20% of people meet their spouses at work.

Some people do and some people don’t. It seems to me it’s largely a matter of personal preference. I worked from home before the pandemic, hated it, and vowed to never do it again. Then the pandemic happened.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
I worked remote for a year before the pandemic for health reasons and didn't like it much, was looking forward to going back. The pandemic was a huge rearrangement to so many things though. It forced through a lot of the accommodations that previously I had to beg and fight for. Got everyone used to having to write more, have video option for all meetings, train judgement about what can be async etc. It also normalized the lunch errand, the early dinner then back at work, the "I might just be away from the computer when you message me" dynamic that makes remote work genuinely fulfilling. I no longer feel like I'm committing a moral transgression against my coworkers by stopping to help a family member with a chore or whatever. I once said I would never willingly do remote. Now I say I'll never willingly work from an office regularly. I might turn out to be as wrong about this as I was about that, we'll see.
- pfannkuchen 3y ago
  A lot of these things seemed normal to me in Bay Area tech companies pre pandemic (large companies, not even startups). I always left the office in the middle of the day to do errands or go to the gym and never felt bad about it. I can’t tell if I somehow had an unusual experience within those companies, or if it’s just that most people on HN work at more restrictive companies.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Bay area tech companies aren't the norm even for programmers. There are like 4 million software devs in the US, most of us are working at companies you've never heard of, and have office norms much closer to that of the rest of office workers. Often somewhat more prestige and flexibility, but not so dramatic. So yes I think your experience is probably an outlier. And on HN generally I think that sort of environment is overrepresented still.

dogma1138 3y ago

Those who are entering the workforce, remote working is fun for greybeards and terrible for fresh grads, interns and apprentices.

thanatropism 3y ago
Then, isn't the long duree view of technology about replacing apprenticeship learning (sit with the master welder, clean the shop, watch him work -- this doesn't cut in software)? Sometimes with explicit learning (linear algebra), sometimes just with low-friction entry points into professions.
losteric 3y ago
Fresh grads, interns, and apprentices typically uproot their lives to move to tech hubs, as do older populations. That is the terrible effect - getting dropped in a strange new location with minimal network. Of course letting "locals" work remotely would make that situation worse, agreed. So completely do away with tech hubs. People can continue to grow organically, they are free to stay or move as makes sense to them individually. As a society, we should be striving to continue decoupling work from our identity.
- fingerprinted0 3y ago
  [dead]
- ethbr0 3y ago
  And critically, housing prices. New employees, at the bottom of the pay scale, are competing with employees making far more (with vesting) for homes. Democratizing this across a larger number of cities (and towns!) seems healthy. Disclaimer: Biased, as have to move regularly for spouse's job, so RTO wouldn't work for me.
  - spacemadness 3y ago
    I like that workers themselves need to “rebel” against the powers that be to solve this as we are completely incapable of improving the housing crisis otherwise. Nimbys, geriatric government ineptitude, and corporate investment is actively working against new home owners. It’s complete generational theft that seeks to turn everyone into a renter for life.

DiggyJohnson 3y ago

I prefer RTO and being in the office with the entire team. That doesn't make me crazy, and I know several others on my team feel the same way.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
I don't think anyone is trying to prevent people who prefer that from forming teams and even companies around the practice. We're trying to prevent reverting to that being the mandatory norm for all workers though.
andrewaylett 3y ago
I don't mind occasionally being in the office with my entire team. The problem is that my team is split across three offices in different cities. We have folk who prefer to work from the office, and that's fine. But it makes team meetings more challenging than they are when everyone's at home. When we were only spread across two offices, we'd occasionally have a team day in one or other of the offices. But the third office is much further away.
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  Oh certainly: in the case of distributed teams I much prefer WFH.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Aren't distributed teams basically the norm nowadays? It has been a long time since I worked with my whole team in a single office. Between outsourcing, satellite offices and remote employees, almost no team I see nowadays has everyone in the same office.
hospitalJail 3y ago
Do you enjoy the unpaid commute time?
- 3y ago

andersa 3y ago

The people who have investments in commercial real estate want it. All those ginormous office buildings... would be obsolete.

marcosdumay 3y ago
> would be obsolete I doubt this. Would probably be cheaper, but I doubt the rental market is so inelastic that the new price will break anything.
- andersa 3y ago
  I wonder if they could be turned into apartments or something else useful.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    There are always some discussion about turning them into apartments here on HN. My conclusion from them is that no, they couldn't. But they could be turned into something else useful. All that space close to each other and at the destination of every transportation structure will find a usage.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

msluyter 3y ago

FWIW, I think Scott Galloway has an interesting take on this: https://www.profgalloway.com/work-from-office/ https://www.profgalloway.com/work-from-office/ One of his arguments is that for younger employees, in that it provides an opportunity to create social connections. For example, it appears that ~20% of people meet their spouses at work.