6 ms·

So startups and the little guy deserve my data more than the big guys? No one deserves my data. Not everything in this world needs to be a marketing opportunity

So startups and the little guy deserve my data more than the big guys? No one deserves my data. Not everything in this world needs to be a marketing opportunity. How does "more pain and friction from marketing" allow for freedom on my devices?

asow92 3y ago
To be honest with you, my whole point is not even missing out on a marketing opportunity. It's way more banal than that. It's more like routing to a specific experience on first app launch based on where you came from on the web.
- jrmg 3y ago
  Why not encode the data you want to pass in the link, like you would on the web, rather Han require an extra pasteboard-based payload?
  - asow92 3y ago
    We won't get the data from the link without the pasteboard or fingerprinting. The app is a blank slate on first open after installing: we lose the context from which we came. It's important to note that this is not an issue for apps that are already installed: we get those links and their data; this is just a first-ever launch issue.
    - adamwk 3y ago
      It’s been a while since I’ve worked with universal linking, but doesn’t Apple’s APIs allow you to carry context? Or at least preserve the URL so you can take the user to where they were? I don’t think you need to hijack the pasteboard just to continue the users flow.
      - asow92 3y ago
        You definitely do for the first launch post install. The flow is click link, copy data or finger print, redirect to the App Store, install, user opens app for the first time, route to experience from finger print.
- joerobot 3y ago
  I'm ok not having a unique or customized first startup experience if it means I get to safeguard my privacy.
  - asow92 3y ago
    I mean, there are other ways around this. We could create an App Clip that essentially does the same thing. It's just harder for the user to get through. Surely there's a compromise solution here? I don't see why Apple couldn't grant trusted certificates to good actors and revoke certificates from bad actors in regards to pasteboard access?
    - eropple 3y ago
      As I have said elsewhere, this is the compromise position. The extreme position is "there is no option for pasteboard access at all and all pasteboard interactions must happen through OS-provided, fully disintermediated controls." You already have a compromise: you can, if you insist and if your user consents--not Apple through some "trusted certificate" granting process but the user themselves--choose to not follow standard system flows. Or you can follow standard system flows and receive implicit consent by the user when they click 'Copy' in the share sheet. Why is seeking consent so terrifying a prospect? And why should anyone privilege "your flows" over that consent?
      - asow92 3y ago
        I don't have a problem with seeking consent from the user, and that's exactly what Firebase Dynamic Links offered by including "Check to continue my place in the app" on by default, but that product is no more thanks to Apple. Consent is given on the webpage before going to the App Store. My issue is with Apple acting as the arbiters of what consent looks like. You have to consent with the flow to go through with it, right? Nobody's forcing our users to continue. And like I have already said, it's not like we can't do what you're suggesting. In fact, we have, but that equates to more churn in our flows because users get confused or are fatigued by the amount of hoops they have to jump through to make the product work, which was my original point to this whole thread.
scarface_74 3y ago
This also parallels with developers complaining that they can’t have a direct relationship with customers. I don’t want a direct relationship with developers. I don’t want to go to their website to subscribe or to cancel my subscription and I don’t want to give them my credit card information. I want to be able to use “Sign in with Apple” and not give them my real email address.
- joerobot 3y ago
  I absolutely agree. It seems like some developers are under the impression that everything needs to be a social experience. It doesn't.
- bdavbdav 3y ago
  100%. It really hacks me off when I can’t “sign in with (Apple/google)”
Affric 3y ago
The problem is that VC doesn't want to build a successful business, they want to build a profitable exit strategy. They want an IPO or acquisition that nets huge amounts of cash. Diligently creating a business which turns a healthy profit for a fair exchange with the customer is less profitable than developing a large customer base that could be sold to someone. Say what you will about the big players... there is no exit strategy. They are in the endgame.
- asow92 3y ago
  Why else would the VC give you money to build anything in the first place? We couldn’t even be having this discussion without the decades of VC spending that’s gone into technology.
  - Affric 3y ago
    > We couldn’t even be having this discussion without the decades of VC spending that’s gone into technology. Unless this is a reference to the fact we are having the conversation on the Y Combinator website specifically, it's is a fallacious argument to suppose that the only way any of our current technology could happen through the historical accidents that have occurred. The nature of complex systems mean that larger systems process more information relevant to their continuance are more successful. I do agree with the point underlying your rhetorical question. I am just not so certain we should be grateful for naked self interest.
asow92 3y ago
So you just trust that apple has your best interests in mind and fully believe them?
- isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
  Apple has more at stake than a rando like you.
  - asow92 3y ago
    what does that even mean in this context?

asow92 3y ago

To be honest with you, my whole point is not even missing out on a marketing opportunity. It's way more banal than that. It's more like routing to a specific experience on first app launch based on where you came from on the web.

jrmg 3y ago
Why not encode the data you want to pass in the link, like you would on the web, rather Han require an extra pasteboard-based payload?
- asow92 3y ago
  We won't get the data from the link without the pasteboard or fingerprinting. The app is a blank slate on first open after installing: we lose the context from which we came. It's important to note that this is not an issue for apps that are already installed: we get those links and their data; this is just a first-ever launch issue.
  - adamwk 3y ago
    It’s been a while since I’ve worked with universal linking, but doesn’t Apple’s APIs allow you to carry context? Or at least preserve the URL so you can take the user to where they were? I don’t think you need to hijack the pasteboard just to continue the users flow.
    - asow92 3y ago
      You definitely do for the first launch post install. The flow is click link, copy data or finger print, redirect to the App Store, install, user opens app for the first time, route to experience from finger print.
joerobot 3y ago
I'm ok not having a unique or customized first startup experience if it means I get to safeguard my privacy.
- asow92 3y ago
  I mean, there are other ways around this. We could create an App Clip that essentially does the same thing. It's just harder for the user to get through. Surely there's a compromise solution here? I don't see why Apple couldn't grant trusted certificates to good actors and revoke certificates from bad actors in regards to pasteboard access?
  - eropple 3y ago
    As I have said elsewhere, this is the compromise position. The extreme position is "there is no option for pasteboard access at all and all pasteboard interactions must happen through OS-provided, fully disintermediated controls." You already have a compromise: you can, if you insist and if your user consents--not Apple through some "trusted certificate" granting process but the user themselves--choose to not follow standard system flows. Or you can follow standard system flows and receive implicit consent by the user when they click 'Copy' in the share sheet. Why is seeking consent so terrifying a prospect? And why should anyone privilege "your flows" over that consent?
    - asow92 3y ago
      I don't have a problem with seeking consent from the user, and that's exactly what Firebase Dynamic Links offered by including "Check to continue my place in the app" on by default, but that product is no more thanks to Apple. Consent is given on the webpage before going to the App Store. My issue is with Apple acting as the arbiters of what consent looks like. You have to consent with the flow to go through with it, right? Nobody's forcing our users to continue. And like I have already said, it's not like we can't do what you're suggesting. In fact, we have, but that equates to more churn in our flows because users get confused or are fatigued by the amount of hoops they have to jump through to make the product work, which was my original point to this whole thread.

scarface_74 3y ago

This also parallels with developers complaining that they can’t have a direct relationship with customers. I don’t want a direct relationship with developers. I don’t want to go to their website to subscribe or to cancel my subscription and I don’t want to give them my credit card information. I want to be able to use “Sign in with Apple” and not give them my real email address.

joerobot 3y ago
I absolutely agree. It seems like some developers are under the impression that everything needs to be a social experience. It doesn't.
bdavbdav 3y ago
100%. It really hacks me off when I can’t “sign in with (Apple/google)”

Affric 3y ago

The problem is that VC doesn't want to build a successful business, they want to build a profitable exit strategy. They want an IPO or acquisition that nets huge amounts of cash. Diligently creating a business which turns a healthy profit for a fair exchange with the customer is less profitable than developing a large customer base that could be sold to someone. Say what you will about the big players... there is no exit strategy. They are in the endgame.

asow92 3y ago
Why else would the VC give you money to build anything in the first place? We couldn’t even be having this discussion without the decades of VC spending that’s gone into technology.
- Affric 3y ago
  > We couldn’t even be having this discussion without the decades of VC spending that’s gone into technology. Unless this is a reference to the fact we are having the conversation on the Y Combinator website specifically, it's is a fallacious argument to suppose that the only way any of our current technology could happen through the historical accidents that have occurred. The nature of complex systems mean that larger systems process more information relevant to their continuance are more successful. I do agree with the point underlying your rhetorical question. I am just not so certain we should be grateful for naked self interest.

asow92 3y ago

So you just trust that apple has your best interests in mind and fully believe them?

isbvhodnvemrwvn 3y ago
Apple has more at stake than a rando like you.
- asow92 3y ago
  what does that even mean in this context?