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What are the laws around the government punishing government employees for criticizing the government? I'm not an expert but it doesn't really seem like a firs

What are the laws around the government punishing government employees for criticizing the government? I'm not an expert but it doesn't really seem like a first amendment issue although I think most would agree that the government shouldn't be punishing its own employees for conduct like this.

ceejayoz 3y ago
This one'd probably hinge on whether the comment was "made pursuant to the employee's job duties". In chronological order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickering_v._Board_of_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickering_v._Board_of_Educatio... establishes a "right to speak on issues of public importance" for public employees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos limits that right when statements are "made pursuant to his position as a public employee". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin extends "First Amendment protection to professors at public universities for on-the-job speech that deals with public issues related to teaching or scholarship, whether inside or outside of the classroom", but doesn't apply everywhere as it's a Ninth Circuit decision.
- bachmeier 3y ago
  I'd be interested to hear how this could fall under the second classification. The professor in this case wasn't even working directly with the politician.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    You can be a public employee without being a direct report to the Governor.
    - bachmeier 3y ago
      Well I get that, but I'm curious what would be the "government employees' work product" in this case, using the Supreme Court's chosen phrase. The case you linked is about someone doing their job in a way that his bosses thought was wrong. It just happened to involved speech. I don't see the connection to this case. To the extent that the criticism of the politician was related to that person's work duties, it's because they're paid by a public university to share opinions related to their expertise.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        The work product of a state university professor is, in part, their lectures. I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin has it right in this regard - that public educators have a specific First Amendment need/exception to be able to teach facts their chain of command doesn't appreciate - but it doesn't yet apply in Texas.
vxNsr 3y ago
[flagged]
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  > Any employee that did that might be subject to negative repercussions, first amendment notwithstanding. The government is not any employer, though. They deal with their employees under First Amendment restrictions not present in private employment.
- Ylpertnodi 3y ago
  >It’s pretty clear from the article what the political leanings of the author are, so it almost comes off as hypocritical and tone deaf to start banging on the first amendment drum on this issue. Could you clarify?
- aaomidi 3y ago
  The government isn’t “any employer” and has a lot more strict restrictions.
- NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
  Uh no. If you're a professor at a state school, and part of your job involves research into the effectiveness of drug policies in harm prevention, then you're not only allowed to make derogatory comments about your employer but compelled to do so if that is where your research takes you. This is not about party-political point scoring: lives are literally at stake, never mind fundamental academic freedoms.
  - jldugger 3y ago
    I've worked in unclassified roles (not faculty). Academia likes to talk a good game about freedom but their annual appointments make it clear the money you get is at the governor's discretion. It's probably a mistake to exercise that discretion, but it's a mistake faculty are powerless to stop: "If you come at the king, you best not miss."
- freejazz 3y ago
patmorgan23 3y ago
IIRC public universities are state actors and thus have to follow certain frost amendment restrictions. Professors at state universities are state employees and you can't fire a state employee for criticizing an elected official.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  In which state is that law?
  - mikeyouse 3y ago
    All of them. State employees have very broad 1st Amendment protections.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      "you can't fire a state employee for criticizing an elected official" isn't entirely true, though. If the Governor's press secretary gets up to the podium and says "my boss is a corrupt fuckwit", they'll get fired, because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos.
HWR_14 3y ago
It was the government school punishing a university professor for giving a guest lecture at another school. Both university professors (via tenure) and government employees (via the first amendment) deserve special protection from their employers to speak publicly.
bbor 3y ago
This is literally the definition of a first amendment issue, in my eyes. Should the president be able to ban anyone who works for any company that has any government contracts from making any critical statements about his administration? This isn’t some intern in the office of the politician she (seemingly lightly) criticized, this is a tenured professor. Besides, IMO tenured professors are the very front line of free speech, perhaps right behind journalists - for the system to function at all (/continue limping along), tenured professors should NEVER be afraid of criticizing the government. At all. In any way.
- dctoedt 3y ago
  > * this is a tenured professor.* I don't think she's tenured — her TAMU Web page says she's a clinical assistant professor. [0] [0] https://health.tamu.edu/experts/joy-alonzo.html https://health.tamu.edu/experts/joy-alonzo.html
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
thinkcontext 3y ago
A federal judge in FL ruled against UFL for denying professors the ability to testify as experts in cases against the state. DeSantis of course has made attacking universities part of his anti-woke cultural jihad. TX and FL have been reading from the same authoritarian hymnal so its not surprising to see a similar situation play out. It will be interesting to see what effect these kind of antics have on quality of higher ed in these states. I must think that there would be some effect on the quality of professors that get hired. https://www.thefire.org/news/judge-university-florida-cant-enforce-conflict-interest-policy-ban-faculty-testimony https://www.thefire.org/news/judge-university-florida-cant-e...

ceejayoz 3y ago

This one'd probably hinge on whether the comment was "made pursuant to the employee's job duties". In chronological order: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickering_v._Board_of_Education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickering_v._Board_of_Educatio... establishes a "right to speak on issues of public importance" for public employees. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos limits that right when statements are "made pursuant to his position as a public employee". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin extends "First Amendment protection to professors at public universities for on-the-job speech that deals with public issues related to teaching or scholarship, whether inside or outside of the classroom", but doesn't apply everywhere as it's a Ninth Circuit decision.

bachmeier 3y ago
I'd be interested to hear how this could fall under the second classification. The professor in this case wasn't even working directly with the politician.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  You can be a public employee without being a direct report to the Governor.
  - bachmeier 3y ago
    Well I get that, but I'm curious what would be the "government employees' work product" in this case, using the Supreme Court's chosen phrase. The case you linked is about someone doing their job in a way that his bosses thought was wrong. It just happened to involved speech. I don't see the connection to this case. To the extent that the criticism of the politician was related to that person's work duties, it's because they're paid by a public university to share opinions related to their expertise.
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      The work product of a state university professor is, in part, their lectures. I think https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demers_v._Austin has it right in this regard - that public educators have a specific First Amendment need/exception to be able to teach facts their chain of command doesn't appreciate - but it doesn't yet apply in Texas.

vxNsr 3y ago

[flagged]

ceejayoz 3y ago
> Any employee that did that might be subject to negative repercussions, first amendment notwithstanding. The government is not any employer, though. They deal with their employees under First Amendment restrictions not present in private employment.
Ylpertnodi 3y ago
>It’s pretty clear from the article what the political leanings of the author are, so it almost comes off as hypocritical and tone deaf to start banging on the first amendment drum on this issue. Could you clarify?
aaomidi 3y ago
The government isn’t “any employer” and has a lot more strict restrictions.
NovemberWhiskey 3y ago
Uh no. If you're a professor at a state school, and part of your job involves research into the effectiveness of drug policies in harm prevention, then you're not only allowed to make derogatory comments about your employer but compelled to do so if that is where your research takes you. This is not about party-political point scoring: lives are literally at stake, never mind fundamental academic freedoms.
- jldugger 3y ago
  I've worked in unclassified roles (not faculty). Academia likes to talk a good game about freedom but their annual appointments make it clear the money you get is at the governor's discretion. It's probably a mistake to exercise that discretion, but it's a mistake faculty are powerless to stop: "If you come at the king, you best not miss."
freejazz 3y ago

patmorgan23 3y ago

IIRC public universities are state actors and thus have to follow certain frost amendment restrictions. Professors at state universities are state employees and you can't fire a state employee for criticizing an elected official.

wolverine876 3y ago
In which state is that law?
- mikeyouse 3y ago
  All of them. State employees have very broad 1st Amendment protections.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    "you can't fire a state employee for criticizing an elected official" isn't entirely true, though. If the Governor's press secretary gets up to the podium and says "my boss is a corrupt fuckwit", they'll get fired, because of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garcetti_v._Ceballos.

HWR_14 3y ago

It was the government school punishing a university professor for giving a guest lecture at another school. Both university professors (via tenure) and government employees (via the first amendment) deserve special protection from their employers to speak publicly.

bbor 3y ago

This is literally the definition of a first amendment issue, in my eyes. Should the president be able to ban anyone who works for any company that has any government contracts from making any critical statements about his administration? This isn’t some intern in the office of the politician she (seemingly lightly) criticized, this is a tenured professor. Besides, IMO tenured professors are the very front line of free speech, perhaps right behind journalists - for the system to function at all (/continue limping along), tenured professors should NEVER be afraid of criticizing the government. At all. In any way.

dctoedt 3y ago
> * this is a tenured professor.* I don't think she's tenured — her TAMU Web page says she's a clinical assistant professor. [0] [0] https://health.tamu.edu/experts/joy-alonzo.html https://health.tamu.edu/experts/joy-alonzo.html
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

thinkcontext 3y ago

A federal judge in FL ruled against UFL for denying professors the ability to testify as experts in cases against the state. DeSantis of course has made attacking universities part of his anti-woke cultural jihad. TX and FL have been reading from the same authoritarian hymnal so its not surprising to see a similar situation play out. It will be interesting to see what effect these kind of antics have on quality of higher ed in these states. I must think that there would be some effect on the quality of professors that get hired. https://www.thefire.org/news/judge-university-florida-cant-enforce-conflict-interest-policy-ban-faculty-testimony https://www.thefire.org/news/judge-university-florida-cant-e...