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Is everything culture war all the time now on this site? Every post becomes a stupid comment section where we'd be better off getting an LLM to write the commen

Is everything culture war all the time now on this site? Every post becomes a stupid comment section where we'd be better off getting an LLM to write the comments for us. Here it's people trying to insert their affirmative action narratives and also rant about California a bit (in a backhanded way). We can do better.

rodgerd 3y ago
> Is everything culture war all the time now on this site? Always has been.
jjtheblunt 3y ago
Disclaimer: have been here since HN started, didn't bother making an account for five years or so. It seems increasingly common that long-time HN readers lament that the fraction of computing news has diluted at an increasing rate itself. I wonder if there's a way to measure that.
version_five 3y ago
What are you looking for? Do you think the post shouldn't have been on here at all? Or if it's here do you think discussion should be limited to a certain perspective or a certain axis? Admitting a political story inherently admits political opinions. What would "doing better" look like?
- throwaway72762 3y ago
  I completely understand that everything has a political dimension. And the broader culture war is leaving nothing untouched. But that means we have less room for a shared community even in small spaces like this. What I lament is that the community of tech folks, embodied by sites such as HN, have splintered and moved away from their roots. I mean go watch the documentaries about the early days of the 70s and 80s and even the not so early days of the 00s: vision, tinkering, weirdness, geekery, cussedness, anti-authority, pay it forward, etc. That is what defined the scene. That's our roots and I'd like it to come through in comments here. Instead it's just culture war: us vs. them, grievances, IGMFU, and all the rest.
- billfor 3y ago
  He probably wants hacker news to look like it did 10 years ago when the topics were mostly technical. Maybe time to rename “hackers”…
  - l33t233372 3y ago
    I don’t mind it just being “better reddit with a technical slant”
nomat 3y ago
i think since reddit gave the finger to its older users, HN has absorbed some of their people and interests.
lostdog 3y ago
I flagged that top level affirmative action comment, and I hope more people do. Contentless flamewars about unrelated culture war policies are boring, and are a negative contribution to the discussion.
- version_five 3y ago
  From the guidelines Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did.
  - throwaway72762 3y ago
    I agree with the guidelines, but they aren't working anymore. I can predict the tenor and content of the comments on half of the HN front page these days just from the title and domain, which means flagging isn't cutting it.
    - version_five 3y ago
      There is also a "hide" button. I assure you that right now there are countless internet fora where countless people are having discussions that for some subset any of us would find horrible. Better just to not engage with what you don't like.
- commonlisp94 3y ago
  > unrelated culture war policies It seems pretty relevant to me. The comment was also positive, applauding this policy for actually trying to identify improvishment. I don't see how you could describe this point as "culture war", "negative", or "flamewar". I suspect you just don't agree. What's unfortunate about HN is that when enough people disagree, those ideas go away and others aren't aware they are even being expressed. The intent of these moderation features is to remove low quality content, but it's almost always a filter for ideology and sociability. I can't count the number of times I have been reading an interesting comment or submission, and suddenly its flagged and completely invisible.
veave 3y ago
What kind of discussion did you expect on a post like this? Obviously everybody is going to talk about the politics involved, that's the only thing that you can discuss here.
- throwaway72762 3y ago
  Perhaps we'd be better off not having any country or state or city does X type posts here unless they're about tech. (That won't solve it, though, because any mention of certain cities or states, even in a tech context, brings out the culture warriors.)
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    This site doesn't limit posts to only tech. The social culture in this site simply makes technical posts more likely to hit the front page. I'm not surprised techies are inherently interested in some socio-political stuff. Especially a topic like education where they may feel it should be an egalitarian endeavor (the interpretation of "egalitarian" inevitably causes conflicts, of course). >any mention of certain cities or states, even in a tech context, brings out the culture warriors. any mention of any high level topic will bring them out. I don't know what to say about that. As long as they are engaging with the topic and arguments and not devolving into attacking users or spreading hate, there's nothing wrong with a strongly opinionated comment.
    - throwaway72762 3y ago
      There is something wrong with it. I think about it information theoretically. Oversimplifying, the information content of something is how unpredictable it is in a given channel. On HN, in 2023, the information content of yet another comment ranting about some given city or state or group of people is basically zero. Everyone has seen those comments a thousand times recently and it adds nothing to the discussion.
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        I think about it more pragmatically. If we removed a post because we were afraid of an effortless comment, we'd have no posts. I think the post itself is worth noting and is interesting. It has room for, how you put it, unpredictable responses. I can't control who or what comments on it, only who to engage with or flag. In that regard, it sounds like a moderation problem more than a content problem to me (Maybe a user problem, but I'm assuming that banning 10 specific users doesn't solve the problem). And I feel you're offering a content solution to a moderation problem, which simply doesn't align. The real question to ask is: is the moderation inadequate? How do we fix it? I feel like asking to ban these posts is giving up to the trolls and provocateurs rather than fixing the underlying problem.
photonerd 3y ago
[flagged]
- oatmeal1 3y ago
  We don't need tribalistic comments like yours.
  - photonerd 3y ago
    Observation is not tribal. Truth is only tribal of one tribe gives up on it. You appear to be claiming the latter.
  - kibwen 3y ago
    You don't need to be tribalistic to point out tribalism. The comment above yours is merely accurate.

rodgerd 3y ago

> Is everything culture war all the time now on this site? Always has been.

jjtheblunt 3y ago

Disclaimer: have been here since HN started, didn't bother making an account for five years or so. It seems increasingly common that long-time HN readers lament that the fraction of computing news has diluted at an increasing rate itself. I wonder if there's a way to measure that.

version_five 3y ago

What are you looking for? Do you think the post shouldn't have been on here at all? Or if it's here do you think discussion should be limited to a certain perspective or a certain axis? Admitting a political story inherently admits political opinions. What would "doing better" look like?

throwaway72762 3y ago
I completely understand that everything has a political dimension. And the broader culture war is leaving nothing untouched. But that means we have less room for a shared community even in small spaces like this. What I lament is that the community of tech folks, embodied by sites such as HN, have splintered and moved away from their roots. I mean go watch the documentaries about the early days of the 70s and 80s and even the not so early days of the 00s: vision, tinkering, weirdness, geekery, cussedness, anti-authority, pay it forward, etc. That is what defined the scene. That's our roots and I'd like it to come through in comments here. Instead it's just culture war: us vs. them, grievances, IGMFU, and all the rest.
billfor 3y ago
He probably wants hacker news to look like it did 10 years ago when the topics were mostly technical. Maybe time to rename “hackers”…
- l33t233372 3y ago
  I don’t mind it just being “better reddit with a technical slant”

nomat 3y ago

i think since reddit gave the finger to its older users, HN has absorbed some of their people and interests.

lostdog 3y ago

I flagged that top level affirmative action comment, and I hope more people do. Contentless flamewars about unrelated culture war policies are boring, and are a negative contribution to the discussion.

version_five 3y ago
From the guidelines Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did.
- throwaway72762 3y ago
  I agree with the guidelines, but they aren't working anymore. I can predict the tenor and content of the comments on half of the HN front page these days just from the title and domain, which means flagging isn't cutting it.
  - version_five 3y ago
    There is also a "hide" button. I assure you that right now there are countless internet fora where countless people are having discussions that for some subset any of us would find horrible. Better just to not engage with what you don't like.
commonlisp94 3y ago
> unrelated culture war policies It seems pretty relevant to me. The comment was also positive, applauding this policy for actually trying to identify improvishment. I don't see how you could describe this point as "culture war", "negative", or "flamewar". I suspect you just don't agree. What's unfortunate about HN is that when enough people disagree, those ideas go away and others aren't aware they are even being expressed. The intent of these moderation features is to remove low quality content, but it's almost always a filter for ideology and sociability. I can't count the number of times I have been reading an interesting comment or submission, and suddenly its flagged and completely invisible.

veave 3y ago

What kind of discussion did you expect on a post like this? Obviously everybody is going to talk about the politics involved, that's the only thing that you can discuss here.

throwaway72762 3y ago
Perhaps we'd be better off not having any country or state or city does X type posts here unless they're about tech. (That won't solve it, though, because any mention of certain cities or states, even in a tech context, brings out the culture warriors.)
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  This site doesn't limit posts to only tech. The social culture in this site simply makes technical posts more likely to hit the front page. I'm not surprised techies are inherently interested in some socio-political stuff. Especially a topic like education where they may feel it should be an egalitarian endeavor (the interpretation of "egalitarian" inevitably causes conflicts, of course). >any mention of certain cities or states, even in a tech context, brings out the culture warriors. any mention of any high level topic will bring them out. I don't know what to say about that. As long as they are engaging with the topic and arguments and not devolving into attacking users or spreading hate, there's nothing wrong with a strongly opinionated comment.
  - throwaway72762 3y ago
    There is something wrong with it. I think about it information theoretically. Oversimplifying, the information content of something is how unpredictable it is in a given channel. On HN, in 2023, the information content of yet another comment ranting about some given city or state or group of people is basically zero. Everyone has seen those comments a thousand times recently and it adds nothing to the discussion.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      I think about it more pragmatically. If we removed a post because we were afraid of an effortless comment, we'd have no posts. I think the post itself is worth noting and is interesting. It has room for, how you put it, unpredictable responses. I can't control who or what comments on it, only who to engage with or flag. In that regard, it sounds like a moderation problem more than a content problem to me (Maybe a user problem, but I'm assuming that banning 10 specific users doesn't solve the problem). And I feel you're offering a content solution to a moderation problem, which simply doesn't align. The real question to ask is: is the moderation inadequate? How do we fix it? I feel like asking to ban these posts is giving up to the trolls and provocateurs rather than fixing the underlying problem.

photonerd 3y ago

[flagged]

oatmeal1 3y ago
We don't need tribalistic comments like yours.
- photonerd 3y ago
  Observation is not tribal. Truth is only tribal of one tribe gives up on it. You appear to be claiming the latter.
- kibwen 3y ago
  You don't need to be tribalistic to point out tribalism. The comment above yours is merely accurate.