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Hint to law enforcement: It doesn't matter whether copyright infringement is ethically good or bad. It doesn't matter whether these sites are legally liable f

Hint to law enforcement: It doesn't matter whether copyright infringement is ethically good or bad. It doesn't matter whether these sites are legally liable for copyright infringement that goes on using them. You look like complete morons trying to take down site after site. You are pissing people off and what do you have to show for it except a few hollow victories? If copyright infringement through file sharing has decreased, it's due to itunes, amazon, google, and all the smaller companies offering digital versions of content. Guess who is missing from that list? MPAA and RIAA members. Trying to fight copyright infringement through punitive fines or throwing people in prison is sick. It's like the drug war, only worse. At least you can point to a few crazy meth heads as a danger to the public. "Pirates" hurt... the meatspace content distributors that are rapidly becoming obsolete?

kamjam 15y ago
Totally agree. It's the old west trying to keep up with the world, it's only a matter of time before you are run over! I have a question. Is copyright infringement (in the UK at least) a criminal offence or a matter for the civil courts?
- njs12345 15y ago
  I think it depends whether it's done commercially or not. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/VI/crossheading/offences http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/V...
  - kamjam 15y ago
    Ahh ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the link.
- arethuza 15y ago
  I believe that format shifting (e.g. ripping a DVD) is still technically illegal in the UK, although I don't think that anyone has actually been charged. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13429217 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13429217
dagw 15y ago
Law enforcement don't have free hands to decide what laws they enforce. There are a good half dozen layers above them kicking downwards screaming "Shut down TPB", until it ends up in the lap of some poor slob who then has to actually go out and physically perform a pointless raid or lose his job. I'm sure that guy (and even his boss, and probably also his boss's boss) don't want to waste their time and resources with these raids, and would much rather go after real crimes. If you want to fix the problem focus on the political and ministerial layer, not the law enforcement layer.
- ktizo 15y ago
  In normal policing they do, it is a daily part of their job and is known as 'police discretion'. http://rynardlaw.com/Article6.aspx http://rynardlaw.com/Article6.aspx
- rmc 15y ago
  Law enforcement don't have free hands to decide what laws they enforce Sure they do. In some countries (e.g. UK) the prosecution service (e.g. Crown Prosecution Service) only bring a crime to court if it's "in the public interest" (cf. http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/code_for_crown_prosecutors/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/code_for_crown_prosecutor... ). Ireland has similar laws ( http://www.dppireland.ie/brief-guide-to-the-criminal-justice-system/category/2/#a3 http://www.dppireland.ie/brief-guide-to-the-criminal-justice... ) Although this applied to the actuall criminal prosecution, not the police enforcement.
  - obtu 15y ago
    Prosecution seems to be politicised, and pursue cases according to who controls the executive branch rather than according to the interests of the general public. I'd like to know which countries have taken steps to make prosecution more independent, and how they did it.
  - spindritf 15y ago
    > In some countries (e.g. UK) the prosecution service Which is several layers above the poor bobby actually carrying out the raid. It's more of an illustration to dagw's post than a counterargument.
cyberswat 15y ago
It's kind of like how they started a country to escape taxes and then gave themselves the power to arrest and imprison those that don't pay taxes ... everyone knows how wrong what is happening is and how much it makes them look like morons to normal people ... but they have deeper pockets and patient lawyers/politicians in those pockets that will span generations if necessary until they get their way. They try a big step, and when it doesn't work, they step back and break it up into smaller steps that get them to the eventual goal. It's obvious their lobbying power is something that defies logic because we were taught how things are "supposed" to work in school. I'm curious how heartfelt blasting (totally justified btw) of these larger organizations accomplishes anything. A moment of rage doesn't stop a river. I'm not sure what does.
- freehunter 15y ago
  You have a few good points, but I'd like to correct the first one. America was not founded to escape taxes, it was founded (in part) because those taxes were coming from across the ocean and the money was going back across the ocean with no American voice being heard and no American benefit from being a colony.
  - smokeyj 15y ago
    Now we send our money to DC and never see it again.
- pinko 15y ago
  "No taxation without representation" != "No taxation"
  - corin_ 15y ago
    That does still leave Puerto Rico as a bit of an anomoly, though!
    - eli 15y ago
      Forget Puerto Rico -- Washington, DC pays taxes and yet has no meaningful Congressional representation and limited autonomy to pass its own laws.
paulhauggis 15y ago
Nobody gets this outraged when companies that violate the GNU license get taken to court and you can use the exact same reasoning as the pirates (When you use open source in a proprietary app, the original is still in tact. The only thing we don't get are the changes, so nobody really gets hurt).
- mikeash 15y ago
  Nobody goes to jail due to GPL violations. If the police were conducting raids, seizing servers, and throwing people in jail for years for GPL violations and people still weren't outraged, then it might be time to talk about a double standard.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - cynicalkane 15y ago
    What would that even look like? GPL code can't be mass pirated by an army of private users, as with TPB--because it's free. And if some major players stole GPL code for commercial use, that would be remedied with a lawsuit, if at all.
    - mikeash 15y ago
      Indeed. A company commits mass GPL infringement (e.g. shipping GPL code to a million customers without following the terms of the license) and it gets settled with, at most, a minor lawsuit. A different company helps its users commit mass copyright infringement (linking to torrents) and its servers get raided and its officers sent to jail.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- rickmb 15y ago
  People get outraged at the abuse of copyright by corporations against the common good. Whether that abuse comes in the form of violating copyright or protecting copyright is irrelevant. Copyright isn't the ethical issue here. The abuse is.
JonnieCache 15y ago
You are pissing people off and what do you have to show for it except a few hollow victories? Budget increments. This is basically the beginning and the end of the story.

kamjam 15y ago

Totally agree. It's the old west trying to keep up with the world, it's only a matter of time before you are run over! I have a question. Is copyright infringement (in the UK at least) a criminal offence or a matter for the civil courts?

njs12345 15y ago
I think it depends whether it's done commercially or not. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/VI/crossheading/offences http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/48/part/I/chapter/V...
- kamjam 15y ago
  Ahh ok, that makes sense. Thanks for the link.
arethuza 15y ago
I believe that format shifting (e.g. ripping a DVD) is still technically illegal in the UK, although I don't think that anyone has actually been charged. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13429217 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13429217

dagw 15y ago

Law enforcement don't have free hands to decide what laws they enforce. There are a good half dozen layers above them kicking downwards screaming "Shut down TPB", until it ends up in the lap of some poor slob who then has to actually go out and physically perform a pointless raid or lose his job. I'm sure that guy (and even his boss, and probably also his boss's boss) don't want to waste their time and resources with these raids, and would much rather go after real crimes. If you want to fix the problem focus on the political and ministerial layer, not the law enforcement layer.

ktizo 15y ago
In normal policing they do, it is a daily part of their job and is known as 'police discretion'. http://rynardlaw.com/Article6.aspx http://rynardlaw.com/Article6.aspx
rmc 15y ago
Law enforcement don't have free hands to decide what laws they enforce Sure they do. In some countries (e.g. UK) the prosecution service (e.g. Crown Prosecution Service) only bring a crime to court if it's "in the public interest" (cf. http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/code_for_crown_prosecutors/ http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/code_for_crown_prosecutor... ). Ireland has similar laws ( http://www.dppireland.ie/brief-guide-to-the-criminal-justice-system/category/2/#a3 http://www.dppireland.ie/brief-guide-to-the-criminal-justice... ) Although this applied to the actuall criminal prosecution, not the police enforcement.
- obtu 15y ago
  Prosecution seems to be politicised, and pursue cases according to who controls the executive branch rather than according to the interests of the general public. I'd like to know which countries have taken steps to make prosecution more independent, and how they did it.
- spindritf 15y ago
  > In some countries (e.g. UK) the prosecution service Which is several layers above the poor bobby actually carrying out the raid. It's more of an illustration to dagw's post than a counterargument.

cyberswat 15y ago

It's kind of like how they started a country to escape taxes and then gave themselves the power to arrest and imprison those that don't pay taxes ... everyone knows how wrong what is happening is and how much it makes them look like morons to normal people ... but they have deeper pockets and patient lawyers/politicians in those pockets that will span generations if necessary until they get their way. They try a big step, and when it doesn't work, they step back and break it up into smaller steps that get them to the eventual goal. It's obvious their lobbying power is something that defies logic because we were taught how things are "supposed" to work in school. I'm curious how heartfelt blasting (totally justified btw) of these larger organizations accomplishes anything. A moment of rage doesn't stop a river. I'm not sure what does.

freehunter 15y ago
You have a few good points, but I'd like to correct the first one. America was not founded to escape taxes, it was founded (in part) because those taxes were coming from across the ocean and the money was going back across the ocean with no American voice being heard and no American benefit from being a colony.
- smokeyj 15y ago
  Now we send our money to DC and never see it again.
pinko 15y ago
"No taxation without representation" != "No taxation"
- corin_ 15y ago
  That does still leave Puerto Rico as a bit of an anomoly, though!
  - eli 15y ago
    Forget Puerto Rico -- Washington, DC pays taxes and yet has no meaningful Congressional representation and limited autonomy to pass its own laws.

paulhauggis 15y ago

Nobody gets this outraged when companies that violate the GNU license get taken to court and you can use the exact same reasoning as the pirates (When you use open source in a proprietary app, the original is still in tact. The only thing we don't get are the changes, so nobody really gets hurt).

mikeash 15y ago
Nobody goes to jail due to GPL violations. If the police were conducting raids, seizing servers, and throwing people in jail for years for GPL violations and people still weren't outraged, then it might be time to talk about a double standard.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- cynicalkane 15y ago
  What would that even look like? GPL code can't be mass pirated by an army of private users, as with TPB--because it's free. And if some major players stole GPL code for commercial use, that would be remedied with a lawsuit, if at all.
  - mikeash 15y ago
    Indeed. A company commits mass GPL infringement (e.g. shipping GPL code to a million customers without following the terms of the license) and it gets settled with, at most, a minor lawsuit. A different company helps its users commit mass copyright infringement (linking to torrents) and its servers get raided and its officers sent to jail.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
rickmb 15y ago
People get outraged at the abuse of copyright by corporations against the common good. Whether that abuse comes in the form of violating copyright or protecting copyright is irrelevant. Copyright isn't the ethical issue here. The abuse is.

JonnieCache 15y ago

You are pissing people off and what do you have to show for it except a few hollow victories? Budget increments. This is basically the beginning and the end of the story.