9 ms·

A company went bankrupt because they fail to deliver on their obligations, people are calling the cops, yada yada. How is this a HN-worthy article?

by iakov 3y ago

pierat 3y ago
Because it was a venture capital backed "bicycle+internet-of-shit". And this bankruptcy has reclaimed all these "shitty bicycles" as the company's property until when or if they send out firmware to permanently unlock them. More likely, these assets will be sold to some other bottom-feeder. All in all, point being: stay the hell away from any VC backed company peddling shit that ties you to their servers. Edit: This is directly related to "Internet of Shit", with a phone-app that logs into their now dead servers, generates a rolling code, and then transmits the rolling code via bluetooth to the bike. This then unscrews the locking pin inside the frame and wheel. This could have been done OFFLINE, but they chose to tie it in their network, which makes these all de-facto company property.
- amelius 3y ago
  Which begs the question: when exactly does something become your property? The moment you pay for it? Or the moment it gets delivered to you? Which would make more sense?
  - hef19898 3y ago
    On a general level, depending on the incoterms. Specifically, it depends on whatever contract and term and conditions you agreed to as a customer. And whether or not those hold up to legal scrutiny.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - cwmma 3y ago
    when you pre-pay for something it doesn't necessarily exist yet so it can't be yours yet.
    - amelius 3y ago
      So whenever you pay for something in advance, you should demand that the thing or its components are yours and have that written in contract (?) And if such a section in a contract is useful for consumers, why wouldn't such a thing be a standard part of consumer protection law?
      - kayodelycaon 3y ago
        In general, this doesn't matter. A great deal of laws basically evaporate in bankruptcy because the company can no longer fulfill its obligations. As my grandfather said: "You can't get blood from a turnip."
        singleshot_ 3y ago
        Well, if you had a first position security interest, properly perfected, you might at least be first in line to try.
        amelius 3y ago
        But they might have a warehouse full of bicycle frames, wheels, batteries, etc. If, in an ideal world, these were marked as mine the moment I paid, then they would belong to me, also in case of an bankruptcy.
  - pierat 3y ago
    I personally have a strict sense of "ownership". The easy proxy for it is: "Is there open firmware developed in FLOSS that I can replace the existing with?" Obviously, that's not a 100%. Perhaps something like this is better: "The thing is owned by me, when I pay for it, and it doesnt have irrevocable tie-backs to the company." Now, my strategy here isn't even foolproof, with auutomatic updates that can reverse features. Ideally, even automatic updates are a trap UNLESS you have a way to roll them back. That's why I highly prefer hardware with FLOSS options. That's really the only way to guarantee my "ownership".
  - spookie 3y ago
    In very much the same train of thought as in the necessity of intermediary banks, the property is yours the moment you pay for it. However, since the transaction didn't occur in person, it may very well be the property of the seller with the obligation to deliver the goods. My wording may be a bit off, I'm no expert. But this is my interpretation of the matter.
  - drewcoo 3y ago
    > when exactly does something become your property? When it is protected with violence, a.k.a. "the police." Police don't enforce ownership? Well, I guess you never owned it.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Ownership is surprisingly well defined legally. And the general principle is actually quite easy to understand. The specifics depend. Hint: The police is only indirectly involved, if at all.
  - marcosdumay 3y ago
    Well, in practice this is a surprising complex thing. You won't get any useful general rule.
  - singleshot_ 3y ago
    Property rights are not a binary, all or nothing thing, so the answer is complicated. When do you have the right to use something? When do you have the exclusive right to use it? When do you have the right to eject others? When do you have the right to destroy it? Copy it? Sell it? Some of these rights you may never have. Some you have the moment you pay, others are practically impossible to enforce until you take delivery.
- coldpie 3y ago
  > "bicycle+internet-of-shit" I'm quite interested in an e-bike, but it seems like most/all of them have or require a smartphone app. That is an instant no-sale for me. I'm not interested in anything that will break when (not if) your company goes out of business or gets bored hosting servers or updating its app for new mobile OSes. So I haven't bought one yet. I wish we could get companies to understand that connecting a Thing to the Internet is an enormous strike in the Con column. Anyone know of a good e-bike brand that doesn't have the capability to connect to the Internet?
  - eertami 3y ago
    > Anyone know of an e-bike brand that doesn't have the capability to connect to the Internet? Quite literally almost all of them? Just go to any bike shop and look around. I'm sure there's probably a lot of sponsored ads online for internet/app e-bikes, but an e-bike is just a normal bike with a motor and a battery. I live where e-bikes are extremely common and I have never seen one with any kind software included.
    - coldpie 3y ago
      Ah cool. I've mostly been learning about them from reviews as they come in my Ars Technica feed. Here's the most recent four, all of which include an app, so I thought it was common. Perhaps that's just a factor of shiny new things that get sent out for review, versus old-reliable models that no one covers. > If you want anything more than that, you'll have to use Specialized's Mission Control phone app, which pairs with the bike via Bluetooth. Once again, I had trouble pairing my phone with the bike https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/into-the-rivers-and-through-the-woods-specializeds-e-mountain-bike/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/into-the-rivers-and-thr... > Tenways also provides an app, which can track rides and offers some other limited functionality https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/silent-stiff-and-svelte-the-tenways-cgo600-pro-e-bike-reviewed/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/silent-stiff-and-svelte... > Before my first ride, I paired the bike with the Trek Central app, which is available for iOS and Android. My first attempt failed, as the app had yet to be updated with the specs https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/it-feels-like-cheating-the-trek-domane-slr9-gravel-bike-reviewed/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/it-feels-like-cheating-... > Learning anything about the bike requires the use of a phone app, which is where I had my biggest problems during my testing https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/gocycle-offers-a-superbly-designed-foldable-e-bike-but-not-without-flaws/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/gocycle-offers-a-superb...
- markstos 3y ago
  The article mentions nothing about remote locking. The bikes in question are physically locked in stores.
  - smcin 3y ago
    Then post a less inaccurate article, already: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/rival-e-bike-maker-helps-vanmoof-owners-grab-bike-keys-while-company-struggles/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/rival-e-bike-maker-h...
- klausa 3y ago
  That's not how the unlocking of the bikes works. The older (S/X3) generation generate a key serverside, but it is then cached on the client and doesn't require a connection to the backend ~ever. On the newer (S/A5) generation, the key has a ~7 day expiration time, but there are also workarounds for that. All of the bikes can also be manually unlocked by inputting a "unlock key" (3 digit PIN, basically) from the bikes physical interface, without any app whatsoever. The situation with VanMoof is _bad_, but you don't have to pretend it's worse than it actually is by making stuff up.
- Gordonjcp 3y ago
  I wonder how hard it is to get at the bit that drives the screw pin, and just wind it back with a wee battery? You know, the way you get the "security locked" electric handbrakes on high-end cars to release, when the electrics are dead?
reportgunner 3y ago
It's ironic because that company promised to catch thieves who steal the bikes you bought from them.
rightbyte 3y ago
The bikes use SaaS to unlock and lock via an app. So it is a internet-of-shit related article.
Ylpertnodi 3y ago
>How is this a HN-worthy article? I enjoy reading the comments.

A company went bankrupt because they fail to deliver on their obligations, people are calling the cops, yada yada. How is this a HN-worthy article?

by iakov 3y ago

A company went bankrupt because they fail to deliver on their obligations, people are calling the cops, yada yada. How is this a HN-worthy article?

pierat 3y ago

Because it was a venture capital backed "bicycle+internet-of-shit". And this bankruptcy has reclaimed all these "shitty bicycles" as the company's property until when or if they send out firmware to permanently unlock them. More likely, these assets will be sold to some other bottom-feeder. All in all, point being: stay the hell away from any VC backed company peddling shit that ties you to their servers. Edit: This is directly related to "Internet of Shit", with a phone-app that logs into their now dead servers, generates a rolling code, and then transmits the rolling code via bluetooth to the bike. This then unscrews the locking pin inside the frame and wheel. This could have been done OFFLINE, but they chose to tie it in their network, which makes these all de-facto company property.

amelius 3y ago
Which begs the question: when exactly does something become your property? The moment you pay for it? Or the moment it gets delivered to you? Which would make more sense?
- hef19898 3y ago
  On a general level, depending on the incoterms. Specifically, it depends on whatever contract and term and conditions you agreed to as a customer. And whether or not those hold up to legal scrutiny.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cwmma 3y ago
  when you pre-pay for something it doesn't necessarily exist yet so it can't be yours yet.
  - amelius 3y ago
    So whenever you pay for something in advance, you should demand that the thing or its components are yours and have that written in contract (?) And if such a section in a contract is useful for consumers, why wouldn't such a thing be a standard part of consumer protection law?
    - kayodelycaon 3y ago
      In general, this doesn't matter. A great deal of laws basically evaporate in bankruptcy because the company can no longer fulfill its obligations. As my grandfather said: "You can't get blood from a turnip."
      - singleshot_ 3y ago
        Well, if you had a first position security interest, properly perfected, you might at least be first in line to try.
      - amelius 3y ago
        But they might have a warehouse full of bicycle frames, wheels, batteries, etc. If, in an ideal world, these were marked as mine the moment I paid, then they would belong to me, also in case of an bankruptcy.
- pierat 3y ago
  I personally have a strict sense of "ownership". The easy proxy for it is: "Is there open firmware developed in FLOSS that I can replace the existing with?" Obviously, that's not a 100%. Perhaps something like this is better: "The thing is owned by me, when I pay for it, and it doesnt have irrevocable tie-backs to the company." Now, my strategy here isn't even foolproof, with auutomatic updates that can reverse features. Ideally, even automatic updates are a trap UNLESS you have a way to roll them back. That's why I highly prefer hardware with FLOSS options. That's really the only way to guarantee my "ownership".
- spookie 3y ago
  In very much the same train of thought as in the necessity of intermediary banks, the property is yours the moment you pay for it. However, since the transaction didn't occur in person, it may very well be the property of the seller with the obligation to deliver the goods. My wording may be a bit off, I'm no expert. But this is my interpretation of the matter.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  > when exactly does something become your property? When it is protected with violence, a.k.a. "the police." Police don't enforce ownership? Well, I guess you never owned it.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Ownership is surprisingly well defined legally. And the general principle is actually quite easy to understand. The specifics depend. Hint: The police is only indirectly involved, if at all.
- marcosdumay 3y ago
  Well, in practice this is a surprising complex thing. You won't get any useful general rule.
- singleshot_ 3y ago
  Property rights are not a binary, all or nothing thing, so the answer is complicated. When do you have the right to use something? When do you have the exclusive right to use it? When do you have the right to eject others? When do you have the right to destroy it? Copy it? Sell it? Some of these rights you may never have. Some you have the moment you pay, others are practically impossible to enforce until you take delivery.
coldpie 3y ago
> "bicycle+internet-of-shit" I'm quite interested in an e-bike, but it seems like most/all of them have or require a smartphone app. That is an instant no-sale for me. I'm not interested in anything that will break when (not if) your company goes out of business or gets bored hosting servers or updating its app for new mobile OSes. So I haven't bought one yet. I wish we could get companies to understand that connecting a Thing to the Internet is an enormous strike in the Con column. Anyone know of a good e-bike brand that doesn't have the capability to connect to the Internet?
- eertami 3y ago
  > Anyone know of an e-bike brand that doesn't have the capability to connect to the Internet? Quite literally almost all of them? Just go to any bike shop and look around. I'm sure there's probably a lot of sponsored ads online for internet/app e-bikes, but an e-bike is just a normal bike with a motor and a battery. I live where e-bikes are extremely common and I have never seen one with any kind software included.
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Ah cool. I've mostly been learning about them from reviews as they come in my Ars Technica feed. Here's the most recent four, all of which include an app, so I thought it was common. Perhaps that's just a factor of shiny new things that get sent out for review, versus old-reliable models that no one covers. > If you want anything more than that, you'll have to use Specialized's Mission Control phone app, which pairs with the bike via Bluetooth. Once again, I had trouble pairing my phone with the bike https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/into-the-rivers-and-through-the-woods-specializeds-e-mountain-bike/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/into-the-rivers-and-thr... > Tenways also provides an app, which can track rides and offers some other limited functionality https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/silent-stiff-and-svelte-the-tenways-cgo600-pro-e-bike-reviewed/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/06/silent-stiff-and-svelte... > Before my first ride, I paired the bike with the Trek Central app, which is available for iOS and Android. My first attempt failed, as the app had yet to be updated with the specs https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/it-feels-like-cheating-the-trek-domane-slr9-gravel-bike-reviewed/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/it-feels-like-cheating-... > Learning anything about the bike requires the use of a phone app, which is where I had my biggest problems during my testing https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/gocycle-offers-a-superbly-designed-foldable-e-bike-but-not-without-flaws/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/05/gocycle-offers-a-superb...
markstos 3y ago
The article mentions nothing about remote locking. The bikes in question are physically locked in stores.
- smcin 3y ago
  Then post a less inaccurate article, already: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/rival-e-bike-maker-helps-vanmoof-owners-grab-bike-keys-while-company-struggles/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2023/07/rival-e-bike-maker-h...
klausa 3y ago
That's not how the unlocking of the bikes works. The older (S/X3) generation generate a key serverside, but it is then cached on the client and doesn't require a connection to the backend ~ever. On the newer (S/A5) generation, the key has a ~7 day expiration time, but there are also workarounds for that. All of the bikes can also be manually unlocked by inputting a "unlock key" (3 digit PIN, basically) from the bikes physical interface, without any app whatsoever. The situation with VanMoof is _bad_, but you don't have to pretend it's worse than it actually is by making stuff up.
Gordonjcp 3y ago
I wonder how hard it is to get at the bit that drives the screw pin, and just wind it back with a wee battery? You know, the way you get the "security locked" electric handbrakes on high-end cars to release, when the electrics are dead?

reportgunner 3y ago

It's ironic because that company promised to catch thieves who steal the bikes you bought from them.

rightbyte 3y ago

The bikes use SaaS to unlock and lock via an app. So it is a internet-of-shit related article.

Ylpertnodi 3y ago

>How is this a HN-worthy article? I enjoy reading the comments.