7 ms·

For anyone using an HDHomeRun or any other OTA capture card, this effectively kills the ability to watch and record content using Plex/Jellyfin/Emby/etc. Only

For anyone using an HDHomeRun or any other OTA capture card, this effectively kills the ability to watch and record content using Plex/Jellyfin/Emby/etc. Only "certified" devices are allowed access to the encryption keys. Only closed, fully locked down black box recording systems will ever be "certified". Don't have a Windows machine with a fully verified HDCP chain? Sorry, you can no longer watch OTA TV.

xur17 3y ago
> Only "certified" devices are allowed access to the encryption keys. Only closed, fully locked down black box recording systems will ever be "certified". I really really hope this doesn't go through, but if it does, I can't wait for the day when these keys are inevitably leaked.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  These modern systems tend to have a seperate key for every consumer. Ie. every single device ever produced has a seperate key. If any device is cracked/leaked, they find out which one is cracked and send out new keys for every other device except the one that was cracked. Through clever use of key hierarchies, you only need to send out a small number of new keys over the air to make sure every legit user gets a new one, but your leaked key doesn't get replaced so anyone using that gets locked out. There is no master key to leak - if you leak one key, you only lock out one device. All other keys are ephemeral.
  - axus 3y ago
    Is that what they do with satellite TV? Not knowing anything, I'd think they'd need a unique connection for every user, like Internet streaming, to have unique keys.
    - kaetemi 3y ago
      Encrypt video broadcast with a master key pair. Then just continually broadcast the decryption key, encrypted for every customer individually, alongside. If there's a mysterious "activation" period after turning on the device initially, it's probably something like that. Rotate the master every so often to kick off users.
      - hiatus 3y ago
        > Then just continually broadcast the decryption key, encrypted for every customer individually, alongside. Wouldn't broadcasting a unique stream for each client increase bandwidth?
        BenjiWiebe 3y ago
        It would, but if you are only transmitting keys, and only every couple hours, it needn't be much bandwidth.
        londons_explore 3y ago
        You can do neat things with key hierarchies to avoid this. Group all your customers into leaves of a binary tree. 100 million customers is a tree ~27 levels deep. Issue every customer a private key on a smartcard. Also generate keys for each node in the tree, and have the smartcard also preloaded with the keys from that customer to the root. (ie. 26 extra keys on the card - easy to store). Now, whenever a customer leaks their key, you cut that customer out of the tree and regenerate all nodes up to the root. You transmit over the air, every few minutes, all the modified keys. Each new key is transmitted multiple times encrypted with the children of that node. Now every legit keyholder either has the master key, or some set of keys that can decrypt the master key (as a combination of the keys on the card and the keys transmitted over the air). Any banned cardholders do not. Using this method, even banning hundreds of keys, there won't be more than tens of thousands of keys that need to be transmitted over the air, even though you might have 100 million cardholders. That's very transmittable every few minutes, meaning that honest cardholders won't have to wait more than a few minutes for service, even if their tree-neighbour is a hax0r.
- mgulick 3y ago
  This has already happened unfortunately. In my area (Boston) nearly all of the ATSC 3.0 channels were encrypted the day they went on the air (CBS, ABC, NBC). As a result, they are unwatchable. We need to petition the FCC to force broadcasters to remove the encryption.
LeoPanthera 3y ago
It’s funny how this is actually worse than cable. I still have and use the old HDHomeRun Prime (no longer made), which has a cablecard inserted into it (which your cable company is legally required to provide, or at least it used to be?) and it emits unencrypted video on every channel, except for I believe “premium” channels which is basically only HBO.
- zucked 3y ago
  I thought I read somewhere that the provision that required cablecard specifically access is no longer in effect. They still must provide access, but what that is seems murkier than ever: https://www.nexttv.com/news/fcc-abandons-cablecard-navigation-devices-rule-review https://www.nexttv.com/news/fcc-abandons-cablecard-navigatio...
  - LeoPanthera 3y ago
    That’s probably true. But I guess if you already have a cablecard, it’s not going to suddenly stop working. Mine is still working just fine.
    - dpiers 3y ago
      Comcast "forced" me off of mine by upping my rate to $180/mo for the cheapest cable-only package when there were contract deals available with internet and more channels for $110/mo. No contract rates available without turning in the cablecard. Switched symmetric GB fiber provider for $65/mo and pay for streaming TV during the NHL season.
      - mcny 3y ago
        > Switched symmetric GB fiber provider for $65/mo and pay for streaming TV during the NHL season. Good, everyone who is able to switch away from cable should switch away from cable. Signed, a time warner spectrum hostage
        3y ago
Gordonjcp 3y ago
> Sorry, you can no longer watch OTA TV. And nothing of value was lost.
- noizejoy 3y ago
  >> Sorry, you can no longer watch OTA TV. > And nothing of value was lost. Except radio spectrum was lost
  - Gordonjcp 3y ago
    "Lost" how?
- kwk1 3y ago
  During severe weather, when the internet goes out, I can receive video updates on the weather situation with OTA TV. Even if cell service is available, it may be spotty or overloaded, and getting this info over a broadcast instead of through a network is simply using the right tool for the job.
  - Gordonjcp 3y ago
    Maybe you need to get a more reliable internet provider, or switch to 4G.
    - kwk1 3y ago
      I'm not talking about an individual problem, sometimes events cause issues that are regional in scope, not limited by ISP, and also result in degraded cell service. If you like, replace "severe" with "extreme".
    - skinner927 3y ago
      Tell me you’ve never experienced a widespread natural disaster without saying it. And your privilege of multiple ISPs and the ability to afford switching to one that may not be included with your rent.
FloatArtifact 3y ago
The problem with cable card companies is spectrum is now sun setting all cable cards due to the FCC no longer mandating their existence for consumers.

xur17 3y ago

> Only "certified" devices are allowed access to the encryption keys. Only closed, fully locked down black box recording systems will ever be "certified". I really really hope this doesn't go through, but if it does, I can't wait for the day when these keys are inevitably leaked.

londons_explore 3y ago
These modern systems tend to have a seperate key for every consumer. Ie. every single device ever produced has a seperate key. If any device is cracked/leaked, they find out which one is cracked and send out new keys for every other device except the one that was cracked. Through clever use of key hierarchies, you only need to send out a small number of new keys over the air to make sure every legit user gets a new one, but your leaked key doesn't get replaced so anyone using that gets locked out. There is no master key to leak - if you leak one key, you only lock out one device. All other keys are ephemeral.
- axus 3y ago
  Is that what they do with satellite TV? Not knowing anything, I'd think they'd need a unique connection for every user, like Internet streaming, to have unique keys.
  - kaetemi 3y ago
    Encrypt video broadcast with a master key pair. Then just continually broadcast the decryption key, encrypted for every customer individually, alongside. If there's a mysterious "activation" period after turning on the device initially, it's probably something like that. Rotate the master every so often to kick off users.
    - hiatus 3y ago
      > Then just continually broadcast the decryption key, encrypted for every customer individually, alongside. Wouldn't broadcasting a unique stream for each client increase bandwidth?
      - BenjiWiebe 3y ago
        It would, but if you are only transmitting keys, and only every couple hours, it needn't be much bandwidth.
      - londons_explore 3y ago
        You can do neat things with key hierarchies to avoid this. Group all your customers into leaves of a binary tree. 100 million customers is a tree ~27 levels deep. Issue every customer a private key on a smartcard. Also generate keys for each node in the tree, and have the smartcard also preloaded with the keys from that customer to the root. (ie. 26 extra keys on the card - easy to store). Now, whenever a customer leaks their key, you cut that customer out of the tree and regenerate all nodes up to the root. You transmit over the air, every few minutes, all the modified keys. Each new key is transmitted multiple times encrypted with the children of that node. Now every legit keyholder either has the master key, or some set of keys that can decrypt the master key (as a combination of the keys on the card and the keys transmitted over the air). Any banned cardholders do not. Using this method, even banning hundreds of keys, there won't be more than tens of thousands of keys that need to be transmitted over the air, even though you might have 100 million cardholders. That's very transmittable every few minutes, meaning that honest cardholders won't have to wait more than a few minutes for service, even if their tree-neighbour is a hax0r.
mgulick 3y ago
This has already happened unfortunately. In my area (Boston) nearly all of the ATSC 3.0 channels were encrypted the day they went on the air (CBS, ABC, NBC). As a result, they are unwatchable. We need to petition the FCC to force broadcasters to remove the encryption.

LeoPanthera 3y ago

It’s funny how this is actually worse than cable. I still have and use the old HDHomeRun Prime (no longer made), which has a cablecard inserted into it (which your cable company is legally required to provide, or at least it used to be?) and it emits unencrypted video on every channel, except for I believe “premium” channels which is basically only HBO.

zucked 3y ago
I thought I read somewhere that the provision that required cablecard specifically access is no longer in effect. They still must provide access, but what that is seems murkier than ever: https://www.nexttv.com/news/fcc-abandons-cablecard-navigation-devices-rule-review https://www.nexttv.com/news/fcc-abandons-cablecard-navigatio...
- LeoPanthera 3y ago
  That’s probably true. But I guess if you already have a cablecard, it’s not going to suddenly stop working. Mine is still working just fine.
  - dpiers 3y ago
    Comcast "forced" me off of mine by upping my rate to $180/mo for the cheapest cable-only package when there were contract deals available with internet and more channels for $110/mo. No contract rates available without turning in the cablecard. Switched symmetric GB fiber provider for $65/mo and pay for streaming TV during the NHL season.
    - mcny 3y ago
      > Switched symmetric GB fiber provider for $65/mo and pay for streaming TV during the NHL season. Good, everyone who is able to switch away from cable should switch away from cable. Signed, a time warner spectrum hostage
      - 3y ago

Gordonjcp 3y ago

> Sorry, you can no longer watch OTA TV. And nothing of value was lost.

noizejoy 3y ago
>> Sorry, you can no longer watch OTA TV. > And nothing of value was lost. Except radio spectrum was lost
- Gordonjcp 3y ago
  "Lost" how?
kwk1 3y ago
During severe weather, when the internet goes out, I can receive video updates on the weather situation with OTA TV. Even if cell service is available, it may be spotty or overloaded, and getting this info over a broadcast instead of through a network is simply using the right tool for the job.
- Gordonjcp 3y ago
  Maybe you need to get a more reliable internet provider, or switch to 4G.
  - kwk1 3y ago
    I'm not talking about an individual problem, sometimes events cause issues that are regional in scope, not limited by ISP, and also result in degraded cell service. If you like, replace "severe" with "extreme".
  - skinner927 3y ago
    Tell me you’ve never experienced a widespread natural disaster without saying it. And your privilege of multiple ISPs and the ability to afford switching to one that may not be included with your rent.

FloatArtifact 3y ago

The problem with cable card companies is spectrum is now sun setting all cable cards due to the FCC no longer mandating their existence for consumers.