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Self hosting is not sufficient. We saw that with the kiwi farms website. I didn't follow their story too close but it's wild how not just Cloudflare dropped the

by bt4u 3y ago

Self hosting is not sufficient. We saw that with the kiwi farms website. I didn't follow their story too close but it's wild how not just Cloudflare dropped them but also how big ISPs were willing to drop routing to them. You can self host. It helps. Won't help you if major ISPs decide your self hosted ip shouldn't exist online.

deathbypenguin 3y ago
I would argue that the vast majority of self-hosting business-cases/needs are not as 'edge' as KiwiFarms.
uselpa 3y ago
True, but only if you threaten their business model, which is unlikely if you selfhost for yourself and relatives.
danaris 3y ago
There's a huge difference between some random techie self-hosting their own website and email for personal use, and a server full of people who spew hate and actively attack others. If you're worried about getting the same treatment as KiwiFarms...maybe don't spread hate or dox and stalk people??
- renegat0x0 3y ago
  https://www.philzimmermann.com/EN/essays/WhyIWrotePGP.html https://www.philzimmermann.com/EN/essays/WhyIWrotePGP.html Governments make the same arguments. If you want encryption you are either a terrorist, or extremist. Everybody should be able to self host, and nobody should be looked down upon for selfhosting. It is not a bad thing that somebody wants not to rely on any centralized government or corporate system, or want their data to be private. Centralized bodies are prone to abuse power. We should work towards decentralized systems, and towards self hosting.
  - danaris 3y ago
    I mean, I agree that we should both promote and support self-hosting, but it does not at all follow that what happened to KiwiFarms was in any way an injustice or a cautionary tale about the horrors of centralized power. If the ability to self-host came, without exception, at the cost of being able to prevent groups like KiwiFarms from bullying, harassing and abusing people, then it would not be worth it. Fortunately, that's not the case! We can have a middle ground, where people who treat each other with respect and dignity can self-host without fear, and people who abuse the system to actively harm others can be taken offline. This is a feature, not a bug.

by bt4u 3y ago

deathbypenguin 3y ago

I would argue that the vast majority of self-hosting business-cases/needs are not as 'edge' as KiwiFarms.

uselpa 3y ago

True, but only if you threaten their business model, which is unlikely if you selfhost for yourself and relatives.

danaris 3y ago

There's a huge difference between some random techie self-hosting their own website and email for personal use, and a server full of people who spew hate and actively attack others. If you're worried about getting the same treatment as KiwiFarms...maybe don't spread hate or dox and stalk people??

renegat0x0 3y ago
https://www.philzimmermann.com/EN/essays/WhyIWrotePGP.html https://www.philzimmermann.com/EN/essays/WhyIWrotePGP.html Governments make the same arguments. If you want encryption you are either a terrorist, or extremist. Everybody should be able to self host, and nobody should be looked down upon for selfhosting. It is not a bad thing that somebody wants not to rely on any centralized government or corporate system, or want their data to be private. Centralized bodies are prone to abuse power. We should work towards decentralized systems, and towards self hosting.
- danaris 3y ago
  I mean, I agree that we should both promote and support self-hosting, but it does not at all follow that what happened to KiwiFarms was in any way an injustice or a cautionary tale about the horrors of centralized power. If the ability to self-host came, without exception, at the cost of being able to prevent groups like KiwiFarms from bullying, harassing and abusing people, then it would not be worth it. Fortunately, that's not the case! We can have a middle ground, where people who treat each other with respect and dignity can self-host without fear, and people who abuse the system to actively harm others can be taken offline. This is a feature, not a bug.