4 ms·

Feels obvious to say this, but very odd that the article didn't mention, lying is bad, especially when done for profit.

by PavleMiha 3y ago

redeux 3y ago
Nearly all magicians and performers lie. It’s why we like them. It’s what makes them interesting.
- enneff 3y ago
  Is that so? Most magicians do not pretend their illusions are actual magic. How do other performers lie? Do you think an actor is lying while they act?
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    > Do you think an actor is lying while they act? If they're acting in an ad, I assume so.
    - enneff 3y ago
      This is an interesting tangent. I agree that advertisers lie, and that some actors that appear in advertisements speak lies. But I don’t think Matt Damon was lying when he portrayed Jason Bourne; nobody was under the impression that Bourne is a real person. They even put “Matt Damon” on the screen at the beginning so nobody is confused.
      - redeux 3y ago
        Framed differently, they put Matt Damon on the screen first because he is lying and they don’t want anyone to be confused about it.
        enneff 3y ago
        “They” in this case includes Damon himself. It’s not some separate group of people protecting the audience from Damon’s deceit. If I say to you “I am acting as a character” and then proceed to do so, where is the lie? Similarly, if I say to you “This is nonsense: Water does not exist” was I lying as I spoke the last four words? Context is kinda important I think.
  - redeux 3y ago
    Of course actors are lying when they act. To study acting is to study how to effectively lie. Do you think Patrick Stewart is actually Jean-Luc Picard? Of course not because you know it’s an act, a lie, a ruse put out to entertain you. Therein lies the difference between a con artist, who is acting, and an actor. We accept the actor’s lies because they entertain us, but that doesn’t make them any less of a lie. The same is true for a magician’s illusions. The act is a lie. They don’t tell you that when they pull your card from the deck, because that ruins the entertainment, but the saying “a magician never reveals their secrets” exists because we know they’re lying to us.
    - enneff 3y ago
      I think you’re kinda robbing the word “lie” of some of its subtlety. It implies disingenuousness. But the actor or magician doesn’t want nor need you to believe they are actually the character, or that they are actually performing magic. They just want you to enjoy the show. Compare to a con artist, who relies on the audience believing the act. It’s that, IMO, that makes them liars.
      - redeux 3y ago
        But there are plenty of acceptable reasons to lie to people beyond acting and illusions. Say your friend is getting into painting and they ask you if you like their most recent work. Objectively it’s average but you tell them you love it. It’s a lie but its intent is to encourage them and maintain your friendship. In this case it would be “bad” to tell the truth, unless maybe you’re an artist yourself who can provide actionable feedback in a constructive way.
        enneff 3y ago
        Your comment doesn’t seem to relate to what I’m saying. I don’t make a value judgment about lying. I’m just saying lying implies deceit. In your hypothetical scenario there is deceit, so there is the lie. I don’t think most actors or magicians are deceitful.
        3y ago
- ksaj 3y ago
  Derren Brown (and surely quite a few others) love pointing out that this is an industry where you tell your audience you are going to lie to them, then lie to them. It's entertainment. Uri was flat out lying, and refused to break character, basically turning him into a charlatan.
  - cwillu 3y ago
    This is approximately what (yes, somewhat irrationally) irritates me about kayefabe.
    - ksaj 3y ago
      That's the first time I've seen this word, yet it definitely distinguishes against real (Olympic) wrestling. I never watched WWF, now WWE, because I couldn't see any use for rooting for any one of them, since the matches are far more about the super-human "stunts" than about anyone in particular winning. Given how manufactured the fights were, whoever the winner was, was a moot point anyway. There is a similarity here for sure. Imagine if Hulk Hogan claimed all his moves were genuine hard core painful moves, and not carefully rehearsed to merely look painful.
      - listenallyall 3y ago
        > Imagine if Hulk Hogan claimed all his moves were genuine hard core painful moves Since you mentioned him specifically, I'd suggest you Google "Hulk Hogan Richard Belzer"
      - dkbrk 3y ago
        You might find this video interesting: Why there will never ever be another show like Monday Night Raw [0]. I have no knowledge of wrestling except for vague cultural osmosis, but I found this video makes a very compelling case that it is a modern form of live theater, and regardless of its low-brow connotations should be understood and respected as such. Essentially: WWE is modern day Shakespeare, not a sport. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvSs3HEz2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvSs3HEz2o
      - 3y ago
- andrewaylett 3y ago
  A lie involves the intent to deceive someone who is entitled to expect the truth from you. It's not merely a question of whether a statement is on its face true or false. This is important, because if we are to make a sweeping statement that lying is wrong, then we need to make sure we are clear on what is and what isn't a lie. I say all sorts of outrageous things to my children, but I'm not lying to them because I don't expect them to believe me -- and they don't. In an analogous way, magic shows are not lying because the deceit is part of the premise. Telling a knock knock joke when you're not actually a banana (or whatever) is similarly not a lie.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> lying is bad I taught my kids otherwise. I found that lying is no more intrinsically bad than truth telling is intrinsically good. Both truth and lies commonly enable terrible harms. Like pretty much everything, it depends. Consideration is a much better policy than honesty. > lying is bad, especially when done for profit. This so often ends up in a bad place that I'll likely flag it as problematic - even before I have complete information. But that's because of reality & history, not an arbitrary rule.
- awb 3y ago
  To clarify, are you advocating for the use of white lies in situations where the truth would do greater harm? Or are you promoting lying to larger degrees?
  - WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
    I appreciate your sincere questions. > To clarify, are you advocating for the use of white lies in situations where the truth would do greater harm? I'm not advocating for truth or lies but for outcomes. Based on this, I think trying to qualify lies is the wrong place to focus. One reason I'll lie is to convey more useful information. Lets say I have a mild ailment that weird and not easily explained. It's impacting my productivity. People who are impacted need a brief explanation. They don't need a rabbit hole or an organ recital or a reason to lose their lunch. I'll lie. I'll say I have a different ailment, one that signals my limitations and closes the subject. Other reasons I might lie. To avoid a situation where a truth will cause someone pointless pain. To avoid an immediate bad outcome for someone - that a truth would cause now but would work well later. The deciding factor in play in these two is consideration. Their well being is better served thru consideration than by a rigid rule. > Or are you promoting lying to larger degrees? I am promoting consideration for others over a rule that is rigid by it's nature. Looking at the other side, I will sometimes tell the truth where it isn't well received. Q: Can you keep a secret? A:No.

Feels obvious to say this, but very odd that the article didn't mention, lying is bad, especially when done for profit.

redeux 3y ago

Nearly all magicians and performers lie. It’s why we like them. It’s what makes them interesting.

enneff 3y ago
Is that so? Most magicians do not pretend their illusions are actual magic. How do other performers lie? Do you think an actor is lying while they act?
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  > Do you think an actor is lying while they act? If they're acting in an ad, I assume so.
  - enneff 3y ago
    This is an interesting tangent. I agree that advertisers lie, and that some actors that appear in advertisements speak lies. But I don’t think Matt Damon was lying when he portrayed Jason Bourne; nobody was under the impression that Bourne is a real person. They even put “Matt Damon” on the screen at the beginning so nobody is confused.
    - redeux 3y ago
      Framed differently, they put Matt Damon on the screen first because he is lying and they don’t want anyone to be confused about it.
      - enneff 3y ago
        “They” in this case includes Damon himself. It’s not some separate group of people protecting the audience from Damon’s deceit. If I say to you “I am acting as a character” and then proceed to do so, where is the lie? Similarly, if I say to you “This is nonsense: Water does not exist” was I lying as I spoke the last four words? Context is kinda important I think.
- redeux 3y ago
  Of course actors are lying when they act. To study acting is to study how to effectively lie. Do you think Patrick Stewart is actually Jean-Luc Picard? Of course not because you know it’s an act, a lie, a ruse put out to entertain you. Therein lies the difference between a con artist, who is acting, and an actor. We accept the actor’s lies because they entertain us, but that doesn’t make them any less of a lie. The same is true for a magician’s illusions. The act is a lie. They don’t tell you that when they pull your card from the deck, because that ruins the entertainment, but the saying “a magician never reveals their secrets” exists because we know they’re lying to us.
  - enneff 3y ago
    I think you’re kinda robbing the word “lie” of some of its subtlety. It implies disingenuousness. But the actor or magician doesn’t want nor need you to believe they are actually the character, or that they are actually performing magic. They just want you to enjoy the show. Compare to a con artist, who relies on the audience believing the act. It’s that, IMO, that makes them liars.
    - redeux 3y ago
      But there are plenty of acceptable reasons to lie to people beyond acting and illusions. Say your friend is getting into painting and they ask you if you like their most recent work. Objectively it’s average but you tell them you love it. It’s a lie but its intent is to encourage them and maintain your friendship. In this case it would be “bad” to tell the truth, unless maybe you’re an artist yourself who can provide actionable feedback in a constructive way.
      - enneff 3y ago
        Your comment doesn’t seem to relate to what I’m saying. I don’t make a value judgment about lying. I’m just saying lying implies deceit. In your hypothetical scenario there is deceit, so there is the lie. I don’t think most actors or magicians are deceitful.
        3y ago
ksaj 3y ago
Derren Brown (and surely quite a few others) love pointing out that this is an industry where you tell your audience you are going to lie to them, then lie to them. It's entertainment. Uri was flat out lying, and refused to break character, basically turning him into a charlatan.
- cwillu 3y ago
  This is approximately what (yes, somewhat irrationally) irritates me about kayefabe.
  - ksaj 3y ago
    That's the first time I've seen this word, yet it definitely distinguishes against real (Olympic) wrestling. I never watched WWF, now WWE, because I couldn't see any use for rooting for any one of them, since the matches are far more about the super-human "stunts" than about anyone in particular winning. Given how manufactured the fights were, whoever the winner was, was a moot point anyway. There is a similarity here for sure. Imagine if Hulk Hogan claimed all his moves were genuine hard core painful moves, and not carefully rehearsed to merely look painful.
    - listenallyall 3y ago
      > Imagine if Hulk Hogan claimed all his moves were genuine hard core painful moves Since you mentioned him specifically, I'd suggest you Google "Hulk Hogan Richard Belzer"
    - dkbrk 3y ago
      You might find this video interesting: Why there will never ever be another show like Monday Night Raw [0]. I have no knowledge of wrestling except for vague cultural osmosis, but I found this video makes a very compelling case that it is a modern form of live theater, and regardless of its low-brow connotations should be understood and respected as such. Essentially: WWE is modern day Shakespeare, not a sport. [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvSs3HEz2o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnvSs3HEz2o
    - 3y ago
andrewaylett 3y ago
A lie involves the intent to deceive someone who is entitled to expect the truth from you. It's not merely a question of whether a statement is on its face true or false. This is important, because if we are to make a sweeping statement that lying is wrong, then we need to make sure we are clear on what is and what isn't a lie. I say all sorts of outrageous things to my children, but I'm not lying to them because I don't expect them to believe me -- and they don't. In an analogous way, magic shows are not lying because the deceit is part of the premise. Telling a knock knock joke when you're not actually a banana (or whatever) is similarly not a lie.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

> lying is bad I taught my kids otherwise. I found that lying is no more intrinsically bad than truth telling is intrinsically good. Both truth and lies commonly enable terrible harms. Like pretty much everything, it depends. Consideration is a much better policy than honesty. > lying is bad, especially when done for profit. This so often ends up in a bad place that I'll likely flag it as problematic - even before I have complete information. But that's because of reality & history, not an arbitrary rule.

awb 3y ago
To clarify, are you advocating for the use of white lies in situations where the truth would do greater harm? Or are you promoting lying to larger degrees?
- WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
  I appreciate your sincere questions. > To clarify, are you advocating for the use of white lies in situations where the truth would do greater harm? I'm not advocating for truth or lies but for outcomes. Based on this, I think trying to qualify lies is the wrong place to focus. One reason I'll lie is to convey more useful information. Lets say I have a mild ailment that weird and not easily explained. It's impacting my productivity. People who are impacted need a brief explanation. They don't need a rabbit hole or an organ recital or a reason to lose their lunch. I'll lie. I'll say I have a different ailment, one that signals my limitations and closes the subject. Other reasons I might lie. To avoid a situation where a truth will cause someone pointless pain. To avoid an immediate bad outcome for someone - that a truth would cause now but would work well later. The deciding factor in play in these two is consideration. Their well being is better served thru consideration than by a rigid rule. > Or are you promoting lying to larger degrees? I am promoting consideration for others over a rule that is rigid by it's nature. Looking at the other side, I will sometimes tell the truth where it isn't well received. Q: Can you keep a secret? A:No.