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I'm hoping that in a decade or so, people will stop using "vaccines never prevented transmission" as an argument since it has been said at least a billion of ti

I'm hoping that in a decade or so, people will stop using "vaccines never prevented transmission" as an argument since it has been said at least a billion of times since the beginning, VACCINES PREVENTED SERIOUS ILLNESS. Same thing about the imaginary widespread side-effects or the mask being useless. Depressing. Personally I'm more worried about the people that went full retard about covid alternative views and conspiracies, I've lost a few friends to that. Sometime I wonder if you will be able to integrate into society ever again.

brutusborn 3y ago
It’s depressing that public institutions mishandled this so badly that a huge segment of the population has lost trust in them. I can agree that the messaging I got was that the vaccine was meant to prevent serious illness. Regardless, the absurd policies, suppression of information and discussion on vaccine side effects was unforgivable. People went full retard because the institutions meant to provide them with good information instead treated them like children and suppressed detailed debate. The only alternative was to go online and risk the lunacy that is internet research, so people did so. Now more people are anti-vaxers than ever before, and not just for mRNA vaccines but old-school shots like measles. At a minimum many institutions need change of leadership after this fiasco, and maybe complete reform of others.
- Manjuuu 3y ago
  Yeah, the handling was not great but sadly I'm not really sure if the population was ready for detailed debate, considering that a good chunk of it ended up misunderstanding most of the official notices and falling for the most stupid conspiracy theories. We need to improve education, by A LOT. And it's everyone responsibility.
  - brutusborn 3y ago
    That attitude is what got us into this low-trust mess. It should not be up to the government to determine what debate the public is ready for. The debate will occur anyway, so if you try to suppress it, you just push it into the depths of the internet with all the associated downside.
anthonypasq 3y ago
the issue is that the conversation is so polarized and religious its literally impossible to discuss any of these issues. the poster you are responding to states some things which are reasonable and others which are complete nonsense. Its like people cant help themselves once picking a side to just wholesale accept every position all the way to "covid isnt real" on one end and "no one should ever leave their house again" on the other end. The initial batch of vaccines were explicitly marketed as having a 95% effectiveness against transmission for the original strain. This was the entire basis of the herd immunity narrative and it was true for about 3 months until delta happened and the medical community did an egregiously bad job of communicating that. Cloth masks are objectively useless for personal protection.
- Manjuuu 3y ago
  > as having a 95% effectiveness against transmission for the original strain. 95% reduction of serious illness. The objective of the mass vaccination was having as much people as possible survive the pandemic. Herd immunity was just noise. There were a lot of noise and nonsense. > Cloth masks are objectively useless for personal protection. Proper masks are effective as measured multiple times, tons of statistics on it.
  - anthonypasq 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - Izkata 3y ago
      And here's some links from a few months earlier showing we knew it was never tested for preventing infection/transmission: https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/12/02/covid-19-vaccines-may-not-prevent-spread-of-virus-so-mask-wearing-other-protections-still-critical/ https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/12/02/covid-19-vaccines... https://www.businessinsider.com/who-says-no-evidence-coronavirus-vaccine-prevent-transmissions-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/who-says-no-evidence-coronav... https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/center-news/2020/12/covid-19-vaccines-transmission.html https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/center-news/2020/12/covid-... Here's Pfizer's press release: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-publication-results-landmark https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta... Notice how it switches between SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19? That's because they're very specifically saying it prevents sickness, and not making any claims about infection/transmission. That came months later, per your links, from media and politicians who either didn't understand or were just straight lying. The 95% they're claiming came straight from the press release which was only about sickness, not infection. It's pretty amazing just how hard this got memory-holed.
realjhol 3y ago
> I'm hoping that in a decade or so, people will stop using "vaccines never prevented transmission" as an argument since it has been said at least a billion of times since the beginning, VACCINES PREVENTED SERIOUS ILLNESS. No. They said vaccines prevent transmission. Over and over. You may have forgotten what was said at the time, but we won't: https://twitter.com/i/status/1665770269418614784 https://twitter.com/i/status/1665770269418614784 It's the reason I was prevented from entering the US until just a couple of weeks ago. It's the reason why my mother-in-law lost her job as a nurse. People who refused this medical treatment, were treated as dangerous because officials claimed that we presented a transmission hazard. This was a lie, which you are further compounding with more lies.
- Manjuuu 3y ago
  I don't forget anything. As I can't forget all the times that I had to explain, since the beginning, that the only statistics available where about reducing to 0 the risk of serious illness. Don't try to change history, please. And don't link me some random idiot's tweet as proof, we are better than this. Just stop now and accept reality, it's a good thing that they got rid of your mother in law, I wonder in how much more pseudo science she believes in. Where I live, people that refused the vaccine were treated as utter idiots but still welcome in hospitals, most of the famous local covid denier died there too.
  - realjhol 3y ago
    > And don't link me some random idiot's tweet as proof, we are better than this. Watch the video clip in the tweet. It shows a montage of officials and talking heads claiming that the COVID vaccines would prevent you from getting COVID and transmitting it. Here's another one if you prefer: https://twitter.com/alliemarie777/status/1667561378398318592 https://twitter.com/alliemarie777/status/1667561378398318592 > Just stop now and accept reality, it's a good thing that they got rid of your mother in law, I wonder in how much more pseudo science she believes in. No it isn't. The NHS now has chronic shortage of nurses. If there were a problem with pseudoscience, then they should have fired her for that, not some vague proxy. You're rather proving my point. So many people are just not ready to have a rational conversation about these narratives. It's all just tribalism and dogma, and we will have to wait years for people like you to calm down to the point where you are able to have reasonably conversations on these topics again.

brutusborn 3y ago

It’s depressing that public institutions mishandled this so badly that a huge segment of the population has lost trust in them. I can agree that the messaging I got was that the vaccine was meant to prevent serious illness. Regardless, the absurd policies, suppression of information and discussion on vaccine side effects was unforgivable. People went full retard because the institutions meant to provide them with good information instead treated them like children and suppressed detailed debate. The only alternative was to go online and risk the lunacy that is internet research, so people did so. Now more people are anti-vaxers than ever before, and not just for mRNA vaccines but old-school shots like measles. At a minimum many institutions need change of leadership after this fiasco, and maybe complete reform of others.

Manjuuu 3y ago
Yeah, the handling was not great but sadly I'm not really sure if the population was ready for detailed debate, considering that a good chunk of it ended up misunderstanding most of the official notices and falling for the most stupid conspiracy theories. We need to improve education, by A LOT. And it's everyone responsibility.
- brutusborn 3y ago
  That attitude is what got us into this low-trust mess. It should not be up to the government to determine what debate the public is ready for. The debate will occur anyway, so if you try to suppress it, you just push it into the depths of the internet with all the associated downside.

anthonypasq 3y ago

the issue is that the conversation is so polarized and religious its literally impossible to discuss any of these issues. the poster you are responding to states some things which are reasonable and others which are complete nonsense. Its like people cant help themselves once picking a side to just wholesale accept every position all the way to "covid isnt real" on one end and "no one should ever leave their house again" on the other end. The initial batch of vaccines were explicitly marketed as having a 95% effectiveness against transmission for the original strain. This was the entire basis of the herd immunity narrative and it was true for about 3 months until delta happened and the medical community did an egregiously bad job of communicating that. Cloth masks are objectively useless for personal protection.

Manjuuu 3y ago
> as having a 95% effectiveness against transmission for the original strain. 95% reduction of serious illness. The objective of the mass vaccination was having as much people as possible survive the pandemic. Herd immunity was just noise. There were a lot of noise and nonsense. > Cloth masks are objectively useless for personal protection. Proper masks are effective as measured multiple times, tons of statistics on it.
- anthonypasq 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Izkata 3y ago
    And here's some links from a few months earlier showing we knew it was never tested for preventing infection/transmission: https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/12/02/covid-19-vaccines-may-not-prevent-spread-of-virus-so-mask-wearing-other-protections-still-critical/ https://www.washington.edu/news/2020/12/02/covid-19-vaccines... https://www.businessinsider.com/who-says-no-evidence-coronavirus-vaccine-prevent-transmissions-2020-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/who-says-no-evidence-coronav... https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/center-news/2020/12/covid-19-vaccines-transmission.html https://www.fredhutch.org/en/news/center-news/2020/12/covid-... Here's Pfizer's press release: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-announce-publication-results-landmark https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta... Notice how it switches between SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19? That's because they're very specifically saying it prevents sickness, and not making any claims about infection/transmission. That came months later, per your links, from media and politicians who either didn't understand or were just straight lying. The 95% they're claiming came straight from the press release which was only about sickness, not infection. It's pretty amazing just how hard this got memory-holed.

realjhol 3y ago

> I'm hoping that in a decade or so, people will stop using "vaccines never prevented transmission" as an argument since it has been said at least a billion of times since the beginning, VACCINES PREVENTED SERIOUS ILLNESS. No. They said vaccines prevent transmission. Over and over. You may have forgotten what was said at the time, but we won't: https://twitter.com/i/status/1665770269418614784 https://twitter.com/i/status/1665770269418614784 It's the reason I was prevented from entering the US until just a couple of weeks ago. It's the reason why my mother-in-law lost her job as a nurse. People who refused this medical treatment, were treated as dangerous because officials claimed that we presented a transmission hazard. This was a lie, which you are further compounding with more lies.

Manjuuu 3y ago
I don't forget anything. As I can't forget all the times that I had to explain, since the beginning, that the only statistics available where about reducing to 0 the risk of serious illness. Don't try to change history, please. And don't link me some random idiot's tweet as proof, we are better than this. Just stop now and accept reality, it's a good thing that they got rid of your mother in law, I wonder in how much more pseudo science she believes in. Where I live, people that refused the vaccine were treated as utter idiots but still welcome in hospitals, most of the famous local covid denier died there too.
- realjhol 3y ago
  > And don't link me some random idiot's tweet as proof, we are better than this. Watch the video clip in the tweet. It shows a montage of officials and talking heads claiming that the COVID vaccines would prevent you from getting COVID and transmitting it. Here's another one if you prefer: https://twitter.com/alliemarie777/status/1667561378398318592 https://twitter.com/alliemarie777/status/1667561378398318592 > Just stop now and accept reality, it's a good thing that they got rid of your mother in law, I wonder in how much more pseudo science she believes in. No it isn't. The NHS now has chronic shortage of nurses. If there were a problem with pseudoscience, then they should have fired her for that, not some vague proxy. You're rather proving my point. So many people are just not ready to have a rational conversation about these narratives. It's all just tribalism and dogma, and we will have to wait years for people like you to calm down to the point where you are able to have reasonably conversations on these topics again.