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> DSL implemented by Guix? Whatever do you mean? From what I've seen (which matches my expectations going in), Guix relies on macros heavily enough to be consi

by cmm 3y ago

> DSL implemented by Guix? Whatever do you mean? From what I've seen (which matches my expectations going in), Guix relies on macros heavily enough to be considered a DSL on top of Guile (as opposed to "library" or "framework"). I could be wrong, of course.

medo-bear 3y ago
Having macros does not equal having a DSL. In fact for me a big benefit of Guix is precisely that it doesn't use a DSL, but uses a well established and maleable language like Guile (Scheme)
- cmm 3y ago
  > Having macros does not equal having a DSL. Any set of non-trivial non-standard macros is a DSL, by definition. You have to know what a macro does and what it is for in order to even understand which of its similar-looking keyword or positional arguments are evaluated and which are not, how they relate to each other, etc, etc. I really don't see what you are arguing about here, or to what end.
  - medo-bear 3y ago
    > Any set of non-trivial non-standard macros is a DSL, by definition. thats not entirely correct but even with that definition you should think about the non-standard part. guix uses standard guile syntax and has the whole guile language available to it. anyway i think you are trying way too hard to equate nix and guile in a way thats simply doesnt click with me. maybe you invested too much time learning nix to concede that there is something better and simpler out there
    - cmm 3y ago
      > guix uses standard guile syntax and has the whole guile language available to it. I feel I'm not getting through here. Let me try again: Guile is base Scheme plus some SRFIs plus some more extensions. None of this is useful outside the Guix bubble, because it is not really used for anything outside that bubble. I suppose pointing at a hundred Texmacs users who picked it up after being exposed to Guix would prove me wrong, but good luck with that. > maybe you invested too much time learning nix Maybe armchair psychoanalysis is extremely bad form. Note that I'm not trying to argue against Guix (or Guile, or GNU, or whatever) -- for all I know Guix is just great, and I know Guile is great (shall I rephrase and repeat this disclaimer again until it "clicks"?). I just tend to be triggered by idiotic sloganeering argumentation, especially when it is repeatedly reflexively employed as if it can substitute for a honest technical comparison.
      - medo-bear 3y ago
        > Guile is base Scheme plus some SRFIs plus some more extensions. None of this is useful outside the Guix bubble, because it is not really used for anything outside that bubble. "idiotic sloganeering argumentation"? > honest technical comparison let me spell it out for you in another way nix is developed in cpp (which itself is a huge collection of dsls) and you use its own (poorly documented) dsl to interact with it guix is developed in guile and you use guile to interact with it this alone implies that you get far more from just learning guile than nix dsl if all you want to do is package management as for a one to one technical comparison, it is just a google search away: https://gist.github.com/abcdw/e54807b0a25e61fe2cf1bf8991410f83 https://gist.github.com/abcdw/e54807b0a25e61fe2cf1bf8991410f... >I suppose pointing at a hundred Texmacs users who picked it up after being exposed to Guix would prove me wrong, but good luck with that. you keep sloganeering that guile is useless outside of guix. i find it pretty funny how willing you are to twist the picture of reality in order for it to fit your world view. i already pointed you to another significant project that uses guile. here is the part in their documentaion spelling out their choice for guile: https://spritely.institute/static/papers/spritely-core.html#appendix-scheme-wisp-primer https://spritely.institute/static/papers/spritely-core.html#... as for texmacs, i dont know where you are pulling your numbers from, but i for one used texmacs for writing papers before even considering taking on software development professionally. so please don't be triggered if i dont take your claim at face value
        cmm 3y ago
        > another significant project that uses guile. That looks like a typical academic project that is overwhelmingly likely to die as soon as the grants run out, what am I missing? Where are the users? > nix is developed in cpp Who cares? > its own (poorly documented) dsl to interact with it Nix documentation is not by any means ideal and is kind of scattered, but calling it "poor" is a blatant misrepresentation. > guix is developed in guile and you use guile to interact with it > this alone implies that you get far more from just learning guile than nix dsl > if all you want to do is package management Argument by repetition, wonderful. > as for a one to one technical comparison, it is just a google search away That is... not good. And when a commenter pointed out its biases and misleading generalizations, the author invited them to go listen to a stream, lol, nope. > you keep sloganeering that guile is useless outside of guix. That's because it is, no need to get so defensive about it. It does not detract from its technical qualities! In any case, the goalpost got moved way far from the original "Guile iS tHe OfFiCiAl eXtEnSiOn LaNgUaGe Of ThE gNu PrOjEcT", wouldn't you say? > forgive me if i dont take your claim at face value "Guile is for all practical purposes useless outside the Guix ecosystem" is my null hypothesis here and so far I stand by it. "Proving" that would be proving a negative, so I don't intend to even attempt that. It should, however, be fairly easy to disprove if you have data. Show us how learning Guile (or any Lisp that is not Elisp really -- sad!) is likely to be worthwhile for a "normal person" apart from using it for Guix.

by cmm 3y ago

medo-bear 3y ago

Having macros does not equal having a DSL. In fact for me a big benefit of Guix is precisely that it doesn't use a DSL, but uses a well established and maleable language like Guile (Scheme)

cmm 3y ago
> Having macros does not equal having a DSL. Any set of non-trivial non-standard macros is a DSL, by definition. You have to know what a macro does and what it is for in order to even understand which of its similar-looking keyword or positional arguments are evaluated and which are not, how they relate to each other, etc, etc. I really don't see what you are arguing about here, or to what end.
- medo-bear 3y ago
  > Any set of non-trivial non-standard macros is a DSL, by definition. thats not entirely correct but even with that definition you should think about the non-standard part. guix uses standard guile syntax and has the whole guile language available to it. anyway i think you are trying way too hard to equate nix and guile in a way thats simply doesnt click with me. maybe you invested too much time learning nix to concede that there is something better and simpler out there
  - cmm 3y ago
    > guix uses standard guile syntax and has the whole guile language available to it. I feel I'm not getting through here. Let me try again: Guile is base Scheme plus some SRFIs plus some more extensions. None of this is useful outside the Guix bubble, because it is not really used for anything outside that bubble. I suppose pointing at a hundred Texmacs users who picked it up after being exposed to Guix would prove me wrong, but good luck with that. > maybe you invested too much time learning nix Maybe armchair psychoanalysis is extremely bad form. Note that I'm not trying to argue against Guix (or Guile, or GNU, or whatever) -- for all I know Guix is just great, and I know Guile is great (shall I rephrase and repeat this disclaimer again until it "clicks"?). I just tend to be triggered by idiotic sloganeering argumentation, especially when it is repeatedly reflexively employed as if it can substitute for a honest technical comparison.
    - medo-bear 3y ago
      > Guile is base Scheme plus some SRFIs plus some more extensions. None of this is useful outside the Guix bubble, because it is not really used for anything outside that bubble. "idiotic sloganeering argumentation"? > honest technical comparison let me spell it out for you in another way nix is developed in cpp (which itself is a huge collection of dsls) and you use its own (poorly documented) dsl to interact with it guix is developed in guile and you use guile to interact with it this alone implies that you get far more from just learning guile than nix dsl if all you want to do is package management as for a one to one technical comparison, it is just a google search away: https://gist.github.com/abcdw/e54807b0a25e61fe2cf1bf8991410f83 https://gist.github.com/abcdw/e54807b0a25e61fe2cf1bf8991410f... >I suppose pointing at a hundred Texmacs users who picked it up after being exposed to Guix would prove me wrong, but good luck with that. you keep sloganeering that guile is useless outside of guix. i find it pretty funny how willing you are to twist the picture of reality in order for it to fit your world view. i already pointed you to another significant project that uses guile. here is the part in their documentaion spelling out their choice for guile: https://spritely.institute/static/papers/spritely-core.html#appendix-scheme-wisp-primer https://spritely.institute/static/papers/spritely-core.html#... as for texmacs, i dont know where you are pulling your numbers from, but i for one used texmacs for writing papers before even considering taking on software development professionally. so please don't be triggered if i dont take your claim at face value
      - cmm 3y ago
        > another significant project that uses guile. That looks like a typical academic project that is overwhelmingly likely to die as soon as the grants run out, what am I missing? Where are the users? > nix is developed in cpp Who cares? > its own (poorly documented) dsl to interact with it Nix documentation is not by any means ideal and is kind of scattered, but calling it "poor" is a blatant misrepresentation. > guix is developed in guile and you use guile to interact with it > this alone implies that you get far more from just learning guile than nix dsl > if all you want to do is package management Argument by repetition, wonderful. > as for a one to one technical comparison, it is just a google search away That is... not good. And when a commenter pointed out its biases and misleading generalizations, the author invited them to go listen to a stream, lol, nope. > you keep sloganeering that guile is useless outside of guix. That's because it is, no need to get so defensive about it. It does not detract from its technical qualities! In any case, the goalpost got moved way far from the original "Guile iS tHe OfFiCiAl eXtEnSiOn LaNgUaGe Of ThE gNu PrOjEcT", wouldn't you say? > forgive me if i dont take your claim at face value "Guile is for all practical purposes useless outside the Guix ecosystem" is my null hypothesis here and so far I stand by it. "Proving" that would be proving a negative, so I don't intend to even attempt that. It should, however, be fairly easy to disprove if you have data. Show us how learning Guile (or any Lisp that is not Elisp really -- sad!) is likely to be worthwhile for a "normal person" apart from using it for Guix.